The WhatsApp message leak

[Mycatsgoldtooth]

So, we’ve had the FBI saying it was a lab leak, the leaked messages showing many of the restrictions were for show, stats on the reality of masks being mostly useless unless N95s. Where are all the people that were so upset about anyone saying anything against the government now.

It’s almost as if no one care where the virus came from and how the government reacted. If I’d spent years being terrified and washing my shopping I’d be really pissed off.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/01/untruth-untruth-peddled-justify-great-lockdown-disaster/

The cry of far right is so childish. Actually thank god for the right of the Tory party as the centre right in charge would have kept lock down longer. The left failed to stand up for the vulnerable and tried to get schools closed for longer.

I find it especially fascinating when they cry "how dare you call me right-wing!"

I haven't said that. I've just said ascribing a particular political view to anyone be ause of their lockdown views is assuming a level of political tribalism.

There's also only been one poster obsessed with things being "right wing" and I see that they're at it again.

It's incredibly childish to use as an insult. So what if someone votes Tory or even Reform? It's a democracy, they're entitled to.
Please note for the hard of thinking, I'm not saying that these are my political allegiances. But it is a voting choice not a deadly insult, outside of student union politics.

Do all our views have to align with a political ideology?
People are trying to put forward discussion points and different ideas. Instead of debating the ideas, they just get accusations on their character thrown at them.
Is it just a way of trying to shut down debate rather than discuss?

What is far right about saying lock downs favoured the laptop/pension class at the expense of the poor and vulnerable.

lock downs curbed civil liberties which disproportionately were felt by the poor and socially disadvantaged as they were more likely to be arrested/fined

Lockdown allowed the government to favour their friends for financial contracts

The army spied on citizens engaging in legal debate.

These are not far right positions.

I will never forget the 13 yr old boy who died by himself because of all these rules that were policed so heavily.

I never really understood why the lab theory was racist but the wet market one wasn't.

I wondered that. I think it was because WHO were anxious to keep the wet market theory and accusing people of racism would shut them up.

Lock downs curbed civil liberties which disproportionately were felt by the poor and socially disadvantaged as they were more likely to be arrested/fined

Yes, I notice that one's gone unexamined. And the fines based policy that we had also meant that people with money could simply pay and go about their business. The fines were lower when paid more quickly, which favours those with disposable income and means people who'd have to budget for unexpected expenses had to pay the full £100 rather than only £50. Those who couldn't pay that were thrown to the mercy of specially created courts with fewer safeguards. This is the absolute opposite of progressive, and it's what we mean when we talk about our experience of the lockdown that was perpetrated by Hancock and his mates of being one that was shaped by the right wing.

And globally, those of us in England had plenty of company, because right of centre governments like those in China, Russia, India, Australia and Ireland all implemented lockdowns. The country in Europe with the lowest restrictions, meanwhile, was left wing governed Sweden.

Lockdowns did affect the poorer and more vulnerable, just like our current covid response does.

I acknowledge that!

The financial advantage played out into so many aspects. We paid for private appointment for my sons hearing, my husband surgery when the nhs cancelled it. We had savings. We were privileged. I paid for baby classes when all the council ones were closed. I paid for private occupational health, I have paid for private tuition. I paid to avoid some of the negative effects of lock down.

Restrictions were in some ways pay as you go.

In its heart it was not an equal intervention as the poor carried the negative impacts disproportionately.

@Periornot what at this point would you like our covid response to be? Genuine question.

@Mycatsgoldtooth That's such a good point about pay as you go. I'm lucky enough to be an NHS patient at a dental practice that does private as well and at one point I was able to pay privately for part of a needed treatment that the NHS had randomly disallowed.
Many just don't have that option financially.

As do I. It's because covid was dangerous that any policy response to it inevitably meant throwing vulnerable people under the bus. If it hadn't been as serious as it was, we wouldn't have had to choose whether to prioritise the welfare of those vulnerable to covid over the welfare of those vulnerable to lockdown or not.

Oh, speaking of specifically right wing aspects of lockdown, another thing the Tories gifted us with here was a legal requirement to isolate, including criminal sanctions for not observing it, with no corresponding right to financial support. There are people who had to choose between eating and risking a criminal record. We had a whole system where part of the population was literally priced out of isolation. It was grotesque.

MinkyGreen
The GBD has been widely criticised - except by the likes of Nigel Farage

What are your views on Prof Susan Michie who is a member of the Communist Party? Do you think her politics have any bearing on her recommendations for Covid rules?
She also has a position at WHO so she’s probably hand in glove with the Chinese government.

And globally, those of us in England had plenty of company, because right of centre governments like those in China, Russia, India, Australia and Ireland all implemented lockdowns
Bashir
China has a right of centre government? That’s news to me.

Yes, it's an authoritarian capitalist regime. You didn't believe the Communist claims, did you?

Ok but New Zealand had a Labour government and a very strict lockdown.

I think we can all agree that whatever China is, it's not what anyone would term socially progressive anyway.

It did indeed. There isn't a correlation between lockdown and place on the political spectrum. It was a policy pursued by left wing governments, right wing governments and those in the middle.

Interesting discussion, thanks to all who have posted. I always thought part of the problem we had in this country was that Labour basically supported the position that our Conservative Government took, which meant that dissenting (political) voices were largely not heard at all and when they were, they were mocked by the politicians and the media for being 'fringe' or 'not mainstream' or worse. I'm by no means exonerating the Tories, and in particular not the execrable tosser Hancock, but might some proper Opposition have helped temper some of the more extreme measures?

Also, just as an aside, diabetes in and of itself was not considered to render people more vulnerable to getting seriously ill with Covid so the PP who said "The 'vulnerable' includes people of all ages and lifestyles - working age people who are transplant recipients, have diabetes or cancer" is not entirely correct.

TBH there was no x cross party consultation between the regions... let alone with Starmer and Johnson.

The Gvt had a 80 seat majority and did do exactly what they wanted to do.

However... much like the current trend to blame Labour for Brexit.. we now get Labour is to blame for LockDown.

I'm just waiting for "Labour is to blame for state of NHS"

Interesting discussion, thanks to all who have posted. I always thought part of the problem we had in this country was that Labour basically supported the position that our Conservative Government took, which meant that dissenting (political) voices were largely not heard at all and when they were, they were mocked by the politicians and the media for being 'fringe' or 'not mainstream' or worse. I'm by no means exonerating the Tories, and in particular not the execrable tosser Hancock, but might some proper Opposition have helped temper some of the more extreme measures?

It's a fair question to ask.

Virtually all mainstream politics fell in behind the government once lockdown was implemented, and it was also more difficult to be critical when Johnson was ill too. While there were left wing sceptics and critics of lockdown right from the start, they were on the fringe and didn't have any power. Those on the right did much better at getting their views heard, after the first lockdown when nobody really did. By summer 2020 they were in the conversation.

That wasn't a good thing for any of us. There are lots of left wing specific criticisms of lockdown that for obvious reasons Conservative MPs are disinclined to make. Naturally they weren't going to admit that the decision to increase police powers was going to be directed in a racist and classist way. They couldn't exactly point out that a decade of austerity increased the way in which the pandemic exacerbated inequalities.

That being said, Labour and the parliamentary left have never had the power to direct the way we were going here. They've just not had the numbers. It's easy to forget now that Starmer is the PM in waiting, but that didn't happen until well into 2022 and by then, the restrictions issue was all over bar the shouting. In March 2020 he was a brand new leader of a party who'd just been floored in a GE and I'm not sure most of the country could've picked him out of a lineup. There's a limit to how strong an Opposition you can be in those circumstances. None of which is to excuse some of his worse decisions like suggesting nurseries get closed again when we heard about Omicron.

It was because the US were involved in funding the Wuhan lab gain of function research

It was because the US were involved in funding the Wuhan lab gain of function research

That’s interesting hamsterarse, I didn’t know that.
But iirc people in Britain were also accused of being racist for suggesting the Wuhan lab leak. Maybe on here as well - but there are so many Covid threads with hundreds of posts it would take a while to trawl through them.

Thanks for the explanation @BashirWithTheGoodBeard. I have a pretty good understanding of most of the science via DD2, who was living at home through the pandemic, but am much less clear on the politics, being fairly apolitical myself.

It certainly makes perfect sense that Labour just weren't in a strong enough position at the time to mount any sort of really robust opposition. It's a pity as it might have put a stop to some of the more extreme measures – I knew quite early on that it's very, very difficult to catch Covid outside unless someone is repeatedly coughing or sneezing into your face for several minutes so all the restrictions on going for walks, jogs, or to parks with the kids was a total nonsense.