Thoughts on using facemasks again....as numbers rise

[Kcc73]

So....numbers of covid (along side other cold/flu viruses) and rising quickly.
I have had cold/sore throat/feeling fatigue - but not covid - after 7 days still can't shake it off. I am not that 'ill' and just getting on with what I have to do BUT my health generally not great and a) the thought of getting covid /or/and flu , plus all these more minor colds , and b) probably worse - the thought of my hubby or teens getting covid/flu (and they probably less careful/mindful re washing hands etc) and the impact of that alone! is beginning to get me in a spin (I suffer with chronic condition that doesn't make me cev but I have high fatigue and pains at best of times).

Yes, I do suffer with anxiety (but have reasons to justify) but as it becoming more evident that we heading into another wave, what is reasonable to do , looking at the measures we used in past - when it was kind of mandatory - that can do now?? I want , and have started wearing face mask in supermarkets . I want to ask my teens to wear facemask on public transport but because no one else, well few, are doing this, feel I can't impose this and don't want to pass on anxieties to them.

BUT I know as 'mum', that if (when) family get sick, it will fall to me to a lot more , which don't get me wrong, I do want and feel should do, - but my stance is let's try and do whatever we can to reduce likelihood or getting sick - or preparing for the worst. I am NOT going to be stopping life; but as we head into winter again I am getting worried. Hubby away for weekend with friends and now it's back to thinking 'oh expect he will bring back covid '.

So wish really there were some more mandatory mitigations tbh. I know a lot will shout me down about this. I don't think we should lockdown before anyone thinks then. Just we are a culture of 'followers' and when fold started wearing masks, it made others accept wearing ok, and when it no longer mandatory, if still wearing one you felt odd! Wondered if others starting to wear masks again or doing anything else? (apart from get vaccinated which for most won't be for a while; my appointment is late Oct as I have another health condition).

Long woffly message. Sorry!

Kc

If it makes you feel protected (you are not) go ahead. I for one will not be joining you.

No you are not 100% protected by a well fitted mask but the difference it makes is not inconsiderable.

You are if you're wearing an FFP2/medical/N95 mask, it makes a big difference

which is something they don't want to do because politically covid has to be something that's 'over' and no longer worth avoiding (and indoor air quality can't become a thing people ask questions about).

You think a centre-left SNP government is supporting the right-wing Conservative and Unionist Party in dropping mandatory regulations, because they’re secretly working together in Operation People Must Die For Capitalism? While getting a Welsh Labour government and a power-sharing DUP/Sinn Fein setup in Belfast to go along with them? And also Ireland? And the Nordics? And…

Mask mandates have proved pretty ineffective in containing community spread, and aren’t politically feasible in the long term because people do not want to wear masks all the time. There isn’t some secret conspiracy somewhere required to make governments agree this is not something they will do forever.

There are many people who are vulnerable to covid and their fellow citizens aren’t willing to wear a damn mask to mitigate covid spread

Because we did, for two years, and it didn’t. How long would you like people to continue trying this for?

You think a centre-left SNP government is supporting the right-wing Conservative and Unionist Party in dropping mandatory regulations, because they’re secretly working together in Operation People Must Die For Capitalism? While getting a Welsh Labour government and a power-sharing DUP/Sinn Fein setup in Belfast to go along with them? And also Ireland? And the Nordics? And…
Mask mandates have proved pretty ineffective in containing community spread, and aren’t politically feasible in the long term because people do not want to wear masks all the time. There isn’t some secret conspiracy somewhere required to make governments agree this is not something they will do forever.

Yes, it's a completely bizarre take. Like the only countries in the world are England and Germany. I quite understand not trusting the Tories, but it's not like you have to in order to understand why mask laws are such a bad idea.

So you believe if you hadn’t worn a mask in those years the covid numbers would still have been the same?

Nice straw man. No I don't think it's a conspiracy - I don't think it needs to be. I think the political pressure for covid to be over and for clean air not to matter is fairly consistent all over.

Well, yes. Based on how they were pretty much the same just over the border in England for the long periods when England lifted mask laws and Scotland did not.

There are two separate issues here - mask laws, and wearing masks. Wearing good quality masks would reduce the number of transmission occurrences (this is really not controversial scientifically). More mask-wearing could be achieved without necessarily needing rigid laws at this stage, if the government were willing to promote the general idea that covid is worth avoiding. They're not. This is a shame for the people (including those currently not vulnerable) who will become avoidably ill, and a shame for the people who need healthcare not to be stretched so much that other treatments are affected.

Nice straw man. No I don't think it's a conspiracy - I don't think it needs to be. I think the political pressure for covid to be over and for clean air not to matter is fairly consistent all over.

Ok, and what ‘political pressure’ do you think this is? Is it that people (no matter where they live) just won’t do it, so continuing to push for it politically is pointless and counter-productive? Is it that huge parts of society just can’t function if people act in the way you would prefer them to, so governments have all decided to avoid it?

Mask laws and more mask wearing are indeed not synonymous. The OP however started this thread to talk about her belief that mask laws should be implemented because they'd increase the amount of mask wearing. That's specifically what it's about, and she even outlines the process and her rationale.

As for whether government promotion of more and better quality mask wearing would increase rates at this stage, who knows? There are some significant legitimacy problems due to Partygate so whether the population will be willing to hear anything at all from the government who did that and gaslighted us all for months remains to be seen. It might be possible, it's certainly not something that can be assumed. It follows that any claim that the only reason the state aren't doing this is political must be premature.

Personally I wonder if it might not be better to use the resources that any such campaign would inevitably require and instead use them to buy FFP3 masks for those most vulnerable to covid who can't afford them. We do at least know that would help.

I understood it to be that Scotland had less infected people earlier in the pandemic then England, hence lower immunity levels meant more people got sick compared to England. This has happened in Australia this year. Australia had a much higher infection rate this year because for 2 years followed quite strict regulations for quite a bit of the time and that kept Australia out of the worst shite (compared to so many other countries). Once regulations came off covid surged in Australia. Although, even so, 2 years of mitigations - 2020, most of 2021 - has meant Australia has done pretty well compared to many European countries, America etc.

Also reading I’ve done has indicated Scotland has a much older age population compared to England and sadly, higher levels of general illhealth. I’m good with being corrected if I’m wrong in this regard.

It did have (arguably?) lower rates earlier on, which then led to higher rates later due to lower immunity, yes. And there’s an argument that mask wearing ended up being part of that (ie, maybe it reduces rates up until the point when the reduced rates in themselves accelerate the spread because there are more people to infect.) Who can say, really.

But I’m not talking about whether the rates were the same on any given day. What I’m saying is that if you look at the infection rate in both countries over time, there is absolutely no way to tell at what point England dropped masks and we didn’t. If it was making a difference then that difference should show up somewhere. And it doesn’t.

Huge parts of society won't be able to function if more people wear good masks on public transport and in supermarkets? Really?

Governments always prefer to do things that are popular in the short term (but that doesn't necessarily make them right), so yes of course popularity is part of it.

Huge parts of society won't be able to function if more people wear good masks on public transport and in supermarkets? Really?

I don’t know, that’s why I was asking you! You said it was ‘political’, but not party political - so, what ‘political’ thing is making governments of all persuasions not want to do this thing you believe is evidently a good idea?

I'd just like to reiterate that I'm CEV and I've had covid seven times. Many of those infections were when masks and other mitigations were mandatory.

This is one of the reasons why I don't see the point in continuing mandatory mitigations. We have antivirals and Omicron-specific vaccines now. We can do no more. If you want to wear a mask, go right ahead. Agitating for huge swathes of society to close again and for people to lose wages/jobs - just no.

Yes, we can do more

The Government can provide Evusheld.

Also clinical settings need to be safe. There is no point in performing expensive and complex transplants, or carrying out the more extensive cancer treatments if you cannot keep these patients safe. We still test for MRSA and have mitigations in place. We have access controls when noro rates are climbing. There is no reason to treat covid with any less care.

Not all CEV are the same. Some of those initially classified as such are withstanding infection well. Others (certain blood cancers) have a death rate of nearly 25% of those who require hospitalisation.

The provision of antivirals is substandard 0 people like to think it's there, but survey by charities found only 13% of those potentially eligible got them on time.

Investing in better ventilation is also something we can do more of

And when rates are really climbing (like now) there should be serious consideration of masks on public transport.

Because if we have mass sickness absences for 3-4 weeks 3-4 times a year, there will knock on effects, which will really harm people. Not necessarily because they are very ill themselves, but because services they need get disrupted. You can't build back (at all let alone better) if large peaks keep getting in the way

Also, we don't yet know enough about the effects of repeat infections - I really don't fancy having long covid (which really isn't like post-viral syndrome, because of the risk of cardio vascular events plus the effects on the brain.

Now I'm not in the realms of those on twitter who like to remind us that HIV infection is initially a mild, flu-like illness from which one makes a full recovery. That's an extreme example, as is SSPE following measles. But when there is a new disease which is hostile to many body systems, and which does show long term and possibly permanent impact on functioning, I really think its worth keeping transmission low.

And when rates are really climbing (like now) there should be serious consideration of masks on public transport.

No there shouldn't. Rising rates don't make mask rules less doomed to fail. The factors that make it a bad idea are not affected by an increase in cases.

The focus needs to be on what we can do that doesn't involve trying to impose restrictions on a population level. That means things like better ventilation generally plus antivirals and Evushed access.

I said upthread that Evushield should definitely be available to those who need it.

What I'm getting at is that we can do no more in terms of mandatory mitigations - masks, SD, bizarre rules in pubs, that sort of thing. And people need to stop agitating for restrictions which will potentially cost more lives than covid ever did - poverty is also a killer, and this winter will likely claim more lives than covid will. And that's without industry-decimating restrictions in place.

I thought this article was quite interesting - it's based on U.S. but some of it resonated. www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/03/covid-us-death-rate/626972/

Yes, very good article. Wide ranging - looks at covid from a lot of different aspects.
It would seem many on this thread have the same erroneous thinking that was addressed in just one small part of the article.

I’ll be reading it more than once.

<i>And when rates are really climbing (like now) there should be serious consideration of masks on public transport.</i>

The highest peak we have had in Scotland (incidentally, the highest peak the UK has ever had anywhere in any country) was when we had mandatory masks on public transport. Why do you believe it would work better this time?

But also, those of us who need to use public transport - in my case because of a disability, in other people's cases because of other reasons - have <i>already</i> had our options restricted throughout the pandemic in a way that those with driving licenses and cars haven't. And not only with masks, but for a lot of other reasons. Travel restrictions impacted me much more than my friends with cars, who could whizz off anywhere in our local area when public transport was still Essential Reasons Only. Getting a vaccine was much harder. Getting a booster was a nightmare. My activities and my children's activities were limited in a way that they would not have been if we could have just popped into the car. (Swimming lessons: "no parents in the building, just wait in the car, until we hand your soaking wet child wrapped in a towel over to you for you to dry off in the car." That's fun in January when you're walking home!)

And on top of that, having to wear masks all the time is a hassle and an annoyance and makes daily travel unpleasant, more difficult (good luck spotting the edge of a train platform when your glasses fog up! sorry, no drinking water on the bus - masks, you know!), for the sole purpose of... well, not much, given by what happened here in Scotland. For the sole purpose of helping people who don't use public transport anyway feel less icky about it?

If you feel that it is a little easy non-troublesome thing to ask of people, then okay, but we've had to do this for two and a half years. So maybe it's the turn of non-public-transport-users to do things that someone else has decided are little easy non-troublesome things. I'll start: all car journeys in built-up areas restricted to 5mph. Think how much easier it would be for people like me to get around safely on foot! Think how many lives we'd save! And all you'd have to do is take a bit longer to get to Tesco. Really not much to ask, right?

Why do you believe it would work better this time?

By looking at the full range of international evidence, contextualised regionally to look at overall progression of all stages of the pandemic waves; not just raw data in selected months from one country.

And unless there is a medical reason why you cannot wear a mask at all, then you argument boils down to "my wish to be unmasked all journey on the bass that I might want to eat or drink at some point" or "I haven't followed any of the antifog advice for masked spectacle wearers, not am I willing to put on a mask as soon as inside and the bit I do not cope with well is over"

I do not think those outweigh the risks of large and intense peaks. Those risks being to those who may die or be debilitated for months, to the NHS, and to the functioning of all sorts of other services, trade and activities which can be severely stressed during periods of high staff absence.

Please not that for masks I am talking about agile use for public transport - at times such as these when rapid increase is clearly underway.

Plus becoming the general standard in clinical settings, because if they become unsafe, then the NHS is sunk - we mitigate for other diseases which would have major impact on patient safety and staff well-being, and covid should not be exempt from that

(PS: I support lower speed limits in built up areas, based on the evidence of scale of injury relative to speed of vehicle (such as the newer 20 mph zones, mainly found round schools) Do you have links to any papers making the case for 5mph?)

Glassyspiral wrote:”Governments always prefer to do things that are popular in the short term (but that doesn't necessarily make them right), so yes of course popularity is part of it.”

I agree, Govts around the world are doing the popular thing - they want to stay in power - it’s short term power and accruing individual wealth before they are voted out. There seems to be little regard for the greater, long term good.

I suggest everyone click on the link to the Atlantic Article that Rainstalksmywashing posted above to the Atlantic piece if you are for or against mask wearing etc... It’s a really well written, broad coverage of covid and people’s responses to it, and references the flu pandemic of the early 20th century as well as hurricanes, other natural disasters and more deliberate ones like the New York twin towers etc. and how we respond. It really is a good examination of what the differences in our thinking are, what causes these differences and how what we often think the majority is thinking, is not actually what they are thinking.

After reading it I think we’ll all have more common ground on which to debate mitigation measures.