Is there much point getting DD vaccinated

[BasementIdeas]

We’ve had an invite through for DD (10) to get the vaccine. I’m just not sure if there’s any point. She’s had Covid twice in the last 4 months with barely a symptom either time. Also, case numbers seem to have started declining now and, if the last 2 years are anything to go by, I expect the summer to be pretty quiet. So is there any point in getting her vaccinated when the vaccine will just wear off in a few months?

I’m thinking about holding off and just reevaluating in October to potentially get her vaccinated before next winter’s surge. Anything I’ve missed?

I know what chicken pox is..but my point still stands- most children are more poorly from chicken pox than covid. A friends child was also actually in intensive care because of chicken pox- very rare, obviously..but it happened. Same as covid.

I’m not resentful of ‘sick leave’ because it isn’t counted as sick leave..that’s my point. It doesn’t even count as admin and so public funding is being used for this and we can not employ the correct amount of people because of this loophole. Whilst others who have diagnosed illnesses get the normal sick leave and so have been forced to return much sooner. It should be the same for ‘long covid’ and then, I’m sure, people would be more pro active.

You can find lots and lots of info which back up stagnating life even more, just as I could the opposite. But I think we just need to accept it’s a virus now, much like all the other horrible viruses which sometimes cause some people to become very ill. I really think there’s no point in fretting so much, for so long. We’ve all sacrificed to get to this point, which seems a very decent point considering where we were.

*count as sick absence

I should also add that plenty of other countries have mandatory chicken pox vaccines, so they obviously didn’t see it as “an itchy spotty rash”. But this definition suits your argument..

@Michellexxx there is a lot of minimising of covid going on at the moment. People are understandable fed up and want this to be “back to normal” “move on” “it’s just another virus”. The current evidence is that we are still mid pandemic and there more than likely be further disruption of some description over the next few years. To ignore that is to stick your head in the sand.

People with long covid are being treated differently as their illness is the result of a global pandemic, and could not have been planned for. In time it will probably be treated as other illnesses, but doesn’t seem remotely appropriate to do so at present.

Children do not suffer long term impacts from chicken pox. 8-50% of children do suffer long term impacts from covid. For goodness sake. Read about it and educate yourself.

I completely understand the sacrifice, believe me. I want everyone to retain their freedoms, health, life, jobs. That’s why I feel on a whole letting down the guard - mid pandemic - is pretty stupid.

From Oxford
www.ox.ac.uk/research/everything-you-need-know-about-chickenpox-and-why-more-countries-don’t-use-vaccine

So why doesn’t the UK use the chickenpox vaccine for children if it is safe and effective at preventing severe disease? All vaccines in the UK are assessed for their cost-effectiveness to ensure that the health budget spent on services which provide the greatest health benefit for the population as a whole.

In the last review of the chickenpox vaccine by the committee which advises the government on vaccines (the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, JCVI), the future modelling of the impact of vaccination indicated that there could be an increase in the rate of shingles in adults over time, which would make the vaccine programme not cost-effective.

This is because, if chickenpox in children disappears as a result of a vaccine programme, adults would no longer have their immunity boosted by exposure to their chickenpox-suffering children and grandchildren and would be more likely to get shingles. Put simply, the conclusion of the previous review was that it would not be cost-effective for the NHS to immunise children against chickenpox.

JCVI keeps all current and potential vaccine programmes under review and is currently reviewing the latest information on the chickenpox vaccine impact on chickenpox and on shingles using data from other countries where the vaccine has been in routine use over the past decade or two. It will advise the government on whether there should be any change to the current advice on chickenpox vaccine in due course.

A shingles vaccine is used in a number of countries, including the UK, for older adults (over 70 years of age in the UK) to improve immunity, suppress the virus and prevent shingles, and new shingles vaccines are likely to become available in the next few years.

For now, however, a review of chickenpox vaccine for British children is pending

Chicken pox arguments aside, any vaccination of children is the personal choice of the family concerned. Any of the information I’ve provided has been in the interests of dispelling myths about the vaccine/covid infection so anyone reading has accurate information to go on to make their own judgement.

I'm fully vaxxed and paid for the chicken pox vaccine for the kids so normally wouldn't hesitate however my children have various additional needs so it really would be very traumatic for them, eldest in particular has severe anxiety around healthcare settings/interventions like blood tests& vaccinations. I would push them to get it if it actually prevented covid but this current vaccine doesn't really. Eldest has had covid twice (that we know of) with very little by way of symptoms, middle child was completely asymptomatic. I may be swayed to try in the run up to Christmas when we are all mixing inside more but the benefits don't seem to outweigh the trauma at the moment.

I see from the rain drop and entitlement to NHS treatment comments that the point has been missed.

The idea that parents should be having their DC vaccinated as part of the effort to tackle covid, for wider societal benefit or anything other than the best interests of the particular child concerned is not one that sits well with a lot of us, particularly after the events of the last two years. This isn't a view that's necessarily affected by vaccination stance either: I've heard it from those who are against, those who are agnostic like me and those who've already chosen vaccination for their DC like robinni.

Thus, those of you who are particularly in favour of kids in the 5-11 age range getting jabbed do not do yourselves any favours when you make this argument. This is entirely unaffected by how persuasive you find it, or whether you think parents should be choosing vaccination for their DC or not. Neither of those things matter.

@vivkensington this seems sensible for your situation.

Be mindful, as I said to OP, that the vaccine doesn’t give instantaneous protection - the immune response from the first jab takes about 14 days, and maximum response would be 12 - 14 weeks from the date of first jab following administration of the second dose.

So if you wanted them to have best protection over the winter from December aim to have the first jab done mid September. I’d say unless a Voc originates in the U.K. we would have a heads up maybe a few weeks warning. Hopefully it will continue to be milder though.

I too would pay for chicken pox vaccine, but DS already had it, very mild as a baby. Not discounting there can be severe complications, but we know what they are and for the most part they occur straight away. Covid has too many unknowns.

[quote Robinni]@Michellexxx there is a lot of minimising of covid going on at the moment. People are understandable fed up and want this to be “back to normal” “move on” “it’s just another virus”. The current evidence is that we are still mid pandemic and there more than likely be further disruption of some description over the next few years. To ignore that is to stick your head in the sand.

People with long covid are being treated differently as their illness is the result of a global pandemic, and could not have been planned for. In time it will probably be treated as other illnesses, but doesn’t seem remotely appropriate to do so at present.

Children do not suffer long term impacts from chicken pox. 8-50% of children do suffer long term impacts from covid. For goodness sake. Read about it and educate yourself.

I completely understand the sacrifice, believe me. I want everyone to retain their freedoms, health, life, jobs. That’s why I feel on a whole letting down the guard - mid pandemic - is pretty stupid.

From Oxford
www.ox.ac.uk/research/everything-you-need-know-about-chickenpox-and-why-more-countries-don’t-use-vaccine

So why doesn’t the UK use the chickenpox vaccine for children if it is safe and effective at preventing severe disease? All vaccines in the UK are assessed for their cost-effectiveness to ensure that the health budget spent on services which provide the greatest health benefit for the population as a whole.

In the last review of the chickenpox vaccine by the committee which advises the government on vaccines (the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, JCVI), the future modelling of the impact of vaccination indicated that there could be an increase in the rate of shingles in adults over time, which would make the vaccine programme not cost-effective.

This is because, if chickenpox in children disappears as a result of a vaccine programme, adults would no longer have their immunity boosted by exposure to their chickenpox-suffering children and grandchildren and would be more likely to get shingles. Put simply, the conclusion of the previous review was that it would not be cost-effective for the NHS to immunise children against chickenpox.

JCVI keeps all current and potential vaccine programmes under review and is currently reviewing the latest information on the chickenpox vaccine impact on chickenpox and on shingles using data from other countries where the vaccine has been in routine use over the past decade or two. It will advise the government on whether there should be any change to the current advice on chickenpox vaccine in due course.

A shingles vaccine is used in a number of countries, including the UK, for older adults (over 70 years of age in the UK) to improve immunity, suppress the virus and prevent shingles, and new shingles vaccines are likely to become available in the next few years.

For now, however, a review of chickenpox vaccine for British children is pending[/quote]
I am very well educated, thanks.. actually one of my family members is a prominent prof in London and attended COBRA meetings during the pandemic.

To be frank, it doesn’t seem like you’re offering non biased advice- your stance is very clear!

The 5-50% of children still suffering includes things like a snotty nose/cough for a while, so I do think using the 50% figure is a bit scare mongering.

I actually do think the time is right to stop including long covid in the way that it is. Lots of post viral syndromes aren’t given as much attention and people are still expected to try and organise life within a reasonable amount of time- ie 6 months for sick pay.

I think most parents are hesitant to vaccinate their children as a sacrifice for others tbh. Especially when there are so many adults elsewhere in the world unvaccinated.

@HardyBuckette

I see from the rain drop and entitlement to NHS treatment comments that the point has been missed.

The idea that parents should be having their DC vaccinated as part of the effort to tackle covid, for wider societal benefit or anything other than the best interests of the particular child concerned is not one that sits well with a lot of us, particularly after the events of the last two years. This isn't a view that's necessarily affected by vaccination stance either: I've heard it from those who are against, those who are agnostic like me and those who've already chosen vaccination for their DC like robinni.

Thus, those of you who are particularly in favour of kids in the 5-11 age range getting jabbed do not do yourselves any favours when you make this argument. This is entirely unaffected by how persuasive you find it, or whether you think parents should be choosing vaccination for their DC or not. Neither of those things matter.

By benefiting wider society they also benefit themselves. Disruption due to covid such as lockdowns, decreased healthcare provision and time off school leads to longterm negative health outcomes, decreased educational attainment resulting in reduced earning capacity and quality of life/life expectancy. I think one paper described the impact of the last few years as a youth health time bomb.

I never said I was particularly in favour of children 5-11 being vaccinated.

I’m in favour of parents having the correct information and understanding the implications of their choice either way.

A lot of the stuff people post - vaccine doesn’t work, were ok with covid before so will be again, natural immunity gives better protection, all kids are absolutely fine and not impacted long term. etc…
It’s not actually true.

It’s important parents are properly informed, then whatever they decide to do is up to them. I would hope that people trust medical guidance, but there is no urgency at present re. the offer of vaccination.

My DC was vaccinated as he DH and myself are all vulnerable. He is in school with other children who are not vaccinated. Neither I or our GP are concerned (viral shedding increases with age, young kids are generally asymptomatic and less likely to transmit), though he does have to stay away from unvacc

Yes, I'd like to know where this 8-50% stat is coming from. We do see some phenomenally wide definitions of long term impacts and long covid, speaking as someone who according to the ONS definition has long covid and finds the idea fairly bemusing.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/honestly-with-bari-weiss/id1570872415?i=1000550058277

This is a great, well informed and balanced podcast regarding vaccinating children. It still absolutely advocates vaccination for adults too.

I also have a 10 year old DD. She was vaccinated on the day she became eligible, as I care for my mum who has cancer and is CEV. Same for my 13 year old DS.

I never said I was particularly in favour of children 5-11 being vaccinated.

To be clear, it wasn't aimed at you as you didn't say either of the things I mentioned. I know you didn't say you thought the cohort as a whole should be vaccinated.

@Michellexxx coming on and comparing covid with chickenpox is ludicrous. The total number of people to die from chickenpox 2015-2020 no more than 14. 75,000 a year for covid. Very few children die from either condition but 3x as many succumbed to covid than chickenpox according to the stats below. Direct comparison

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/childdeathsandhospitalisationsinvolvingcovid19andchickenpox

Very glad for you that your relative is a prominent professor. This is about as relevant as me saying my Uncle is Stephen Hawking so that means I must know a lot about theoretical physics.

I do not give a tinkers what people decide to do. I don’t like people spouting absolute gobbledegook that isn’t actually correct.

The information I’ve given to try and help explain things is from respected journals etc. And I completely respect that some have significant concerns - it’s our kids after all.

@HardyBuckette

Yes, I'd like to know where this 8-50% stat is coming from. We do see some phenomenally wide definitions of long term impacts and long covid, speaking as someone who according to the ONS definition has long covid and finds the idea fairly bemusing.

@HardyBuckette

This is copied from a response I made to another parent who specifically asked me about long covid in children. The large range is due to differences in methodology and in the children looked at. The point is they don’t have enough information at present to make firm conclusions, but should do in a few years. Figures are in no way meant to scare monger but to give an example of how uncertain the data is at present.

it’s too early for data on the impact of vaccination 5-11 on long covid. However a review article came out in February showing the risk was halved in adults.
www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o407

Preliminary findings from the CLoCk study (the largest study into long covid in children 11-17) has shown 14% have symptoms 15wks on from infection. www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2021/sep/first-findings-worlds-largest-study-long-covid-children

Other studies have included those in 5-11 age range with long covid occurring in 7.4 - 50%.
adc.bmj.com/content/107/3/e2.full
www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o143.full
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01935-7

Numerous other papers available via google scholar on long covid and kids for info. There is a charity set up now as well, obviously that will be biased but details all the symptoms multi systemic disease.
www.longcovidkids.org/

NIH have ongoing research too amongst others so maybe look to studies such as these for updates, may be years before the full extent is known. covid19.nih.gov/news-and-stories/understanding-long-term-effects-covid-19-children

@HardyBuckette I have a 26 year old friend who can no longer work due to long covid and know of several kids who’ve suffered significantly. This may influence my viewpoint and obviously my child is classified as vulnerable and would be more likely to develop complications so that did influence my personal decision.

@Samarie123

If she’s had covid then she’ll be protected.

Mine have had it twice within the last six months. It’s not true that having it protects you.

Mmm, the data is uncertain. 'Symptoms' is incredibly wide, so it's not a great surprise that we end up with a range like 7-50%. Some of them caveat it even further with 'may'. The UCL one does.

I certainly believe long covid exists and potentially could be important, but I don't think it helps anyone to lump people like me whose chests still aren't quite right in the cold weather after a few months (which would qualify me under the BMJ paper above as well as the ONS) with people like your friend. The problem is that when our definitions are so wide that we include even quite mild symptoms not very long after, we do. Some of the uncertainty can't be helped in that it kind of has to be self reported symptoms at the moment given that we don't have a proper system to identify and treat long covid, but we build more in too.

For me, I think the decision to vaccinate a 5-11 year old is perfectly valid, at minimum there's not much in it, so I wouldn't think ill of someone who was worried about actual significant long covid and made the decision on that basis.

Surely though those studies looking at how vaccination reduces the risk of long covid is versus people who Camacho covid before vaccination. The majority of children have had covid one or two times now so for those children we don’t know if vaccination would further reduce the risk of long covid. If I hadn’t gone on to develop long covid symptoms from vaccination I would probably be in favour of vaccinating my children even after two covid infections but as I have it completely alters the risk/ benefit ratio for me.

@JS87 Camacho?

@HardyBuckette I suspect with younger children it’s difficult to gauge the exact impact of long covid as so many are asymptomatic or infections go unreported. In >12s tend to be more symptomatic so they have more data to go on.

I’ve read a couple of studies are bringing in kids and adults who’ve been asymptomatic as well as those who’ve had acute infection and been hospitalised. Scanning them, doing bloods etc. to see the long term impact, so will be interesting when that information is out.

The issue why they’re putting so much into it, why they need to understand it, is that obviously these people need help now, but there may also be damage, unseen without investigation, that results in heightened vulnerability for cardiovascular, neurological disease, etc. later down the line with a large burden on healthcare and all that needs to be planned for.

Anyway that’s a slight diversion, I get what you’re saying, definition of long covid is too wide and I agree. But it will take time for the longitudinal studies to be carried out. My reasoning for mentioning is that a lot of people discount it as being relevant for kids, when clearly it is a risk. Just as much as there are risk factors for vaccination. Although I haven’t read anything at all from anywhere credible saying the risk outweighs the benefit of vaccination.

It can be a difficult decision without a crystal ball, but I am content we made the right choice for our family.

@JS87

Surely though those studies looking at how vaccination reduces the risk of long covid is versus people who Camacho covid before vaccination. The majority of children have had covid one or two times now so for those children we don’t know if vaccination would further reduce the risk of long covid. If I hadn’t gone on to develop long covid symptoms from vaccination I would probably be in favour of vaccinating my children even after two covid infections but as I have it completely alters the risk/ benefit ratio for me.

As I’ve said before each covid infection needs to be taken as a separate entity. Factors of host - virus - environment interact to give clinical outcome.

If someone has covid and isn’t vaccinated, then later vaccination can do nothing to undo whatever damage was done from the first infection. What it can do is reduce the risk of long term consequences in the event of further infections post vaccination.

Is that what you were asking?

Anyway I actually have covid rn, hence all the oodles of time to reply, thanks it’s been diverting

Good luck to anyone deciding what to do, I think I’m done responding to covid stuff now

@Robinni

Anyway I actually have covid rn, hence all the oodles of time to reply, thanks it’s been diverting

Good luck to anyone deciding what to do, I think I’m done responding to covid stuff now

Hope you get away mildly!

@KosherDill your ignorance and entitlement is offensive to be honest. So if I tell you that I am and will forever be a net contributor of tax for the UK ( I grew up abroad so never used any services, had my children privately, use my private health insurance where possible and I am a higher tax rate payer) do I have your permission to teach my child bodily autonomy and potentially use NHS services?

All your comments are doing in this thread is proving you have no idea how to form a coherent argument.