Is there much point getting DD vaccinated

[BasementIdeas]

We’ve had an invite through for DD (10) to get the vaccine. I’m just not sure if there’s any point. She’s had Covid twice in the last 4 months with barely a symptom either time. Also, case numbers seem to have started declining now and, if the last 2 years are anything to go by, I expect the summer to be pretty quiet. So is there any point in getting her vaccinated when the vaccine will just wear off in a few months?

I’m thinking about holding off and just reevaluating in October to potentially get her vaccinated before next winter’s surge. Anything I’ve missed?

@KosherDill absolutely yes. I am teaching my child that she is allowed bodily autonomy and can form her own decisions about herself and her body.

Judge away. But your comment makes me wonder what sort of parent you are and how you are bringing up your children

My teenage Dd has bravely opted for brain surgery pathway to take out the piece that is virus damaged. We are supporting her choice. Not sure when/if she’ll get the surgery though.
Thank you Velvian. I would do anything for her to have been vaccinated against the virus that did this.

But we are not dismissive. I myself am triple vaccinated. Every virus can cause post viral damage. I remember my toddler stopped walking after a simple respiratory viral infection. We don’t vaccinate against that and it was quite a rare complication my toddler thankfully recovered from. Risks of complications with covid are very very small for under 12. Otherwise there would not be any doubts for most parents. We can’t make a minuscule risk any smaller. Why people dismiss so quickly those who actually died from AZ vaccine. They died, like they are not alive anymore purely due to side effects and it’s a fact. I myself am under 40 but was vaccinated early due to job with AZ before they stopped giving it to under 40s. It was scary. I haven’t forgotten these people. But just like they accepted the risk of this rare side effect, I accept the risk that there is a tiniest chance of post viral complications after my children get covid (again). But there’s no guarantee that vaccine will help preventing that, especially when they have had no symptoms previously. And there are so many viruses we don’t vaccinate from.

And yes I know children don’t get AZ.

@Letmethinkidontknow

But we are not dismissive. I myself am triple vaccinated. Every virus can cause post viral damage. I remember my toddler stopped walking after a simple respiratory viral infection. We don’t vaccinate against that and it was quite a rare complication my toddler thankfully recovered from. Risks of complications with covid are very very small for under 12. Otherwise there would not be any doubts for most parents. We can’t make a minuscule risk any smaller. Why people dismiss so quickly those who actually died from AZ vaccine. They died, like they are not alive anymore purely due to side effects and it’s a fact. I myself am under 40 but was vaccinated early due to job with AZ before they stopped giving it to under 40s. It was scary. I haven’t forgotten these people. But just like they accepted the risk of this rare side effect, I accept the risk that there is a tiniest chance of post viral complications after my children get covid (again). But there’s no guarantee that vaccine will help preventing that, especially when they have had no symptoms previously. And there are so many viruses we don’t vaccinate from.

This.

The main purpose of vaccination is to reduce the risk of severe illness. The risk of severe illness in healthy children is incredibly low. My 8yo has had Covid twice since Christmas (I got it 2 weeks after my booster and may possibly have had it on DS2's second round but as he effectively isolated me, there was little point in wasting umpteen tests to find out what kind of "cold" I had.) First time he was just tired, and I wouldn't have known that he was "ill" if testing wasn't avaliable, second time in March it was a standard "cold".
My 11yo has always tested negative. Since we've been through 2 years of this, had a couple of very minor rounds of "illness" or fought it off when it's been in the household, I can see no medical benefit for them to have a vaccination.

TBH, under current circumstances, I can't see any purpose in me having additional boosters. The point of a vaccine that makes me feel more ill than the illness it protects against is a bit moot really!

I've no issue with others choosing to take the vaccine where they feel that it benefits them.

If you get her vaccinated in October it will be too late for the start winter surge.

The vaccine doesn’t give instantaneous protection - the immune response from the first jab takes about 14 days, and maximum response would be 12 - 14 weeks from the date of first jab following administration of the second dose.

So vaccinating on 1st Oct would lead to maximal response circa end Dec/start Jan.

I agree with other posters that data won’t be accurate as people won’t be testing/reporting as before. There is a lot of complacency at the moment, a large no. of people appear to think the pandemic is over due to the present relaxation of restrictions.

There could be a more dangerous variant at any point and there are considerations that long covid occurs in somewhere between 8-50% of kids (wide range due to differing methodology and location of studies).

We chose to vaccinate now as DS is vulnerable and I didn’t like the long covid data and outlook for viral evolution and transmission. I presume there will probably be a booster for kids if there is a surge later which will enhance protection further. Rev up the response.

Offer is non urgent at the moment so very much a personal judgement call.

I'm not getting DS(7) vaccinated for the time being. He had COVID in January with almost no symptoms, and since the vaccination gives limited protection for a limited time...it doesn't seem worth persuading him to get jabbed. If he hadn't already had it I might feel differently.

long covid occurs in somewhere between 8-50% of kids

I don't know anyone who really worries about this, since we all know dozens of kids who have had it now. The studies include trivial symptoms which might drag on for a few weeks after any virus, so unless we are also going to have "Long Snotty Cold" and "Long Tonsillitis" (both of which DS has had long before COVID) then I think the term long COVID should be used much more carefully.

@Pop175 re. Transmission. Yes it is true that vaccinated people can transmit covid if there is a break through infection. However they are significantly less likely to get it due to the vaccine - if they don’t develop the infection they can’t transmit it. And if break through infection occurs peak viral load is less and declines quicker meaning they are a risk to others (and themselves) for a shorter period of time.

www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

We are doing well at the moment with 90% >12s on a vaccination schedule. If people become complacent and this drops then things could change course quickly.

A lot of people are making the assumption that future covid infections in an individual will replicate the path of prior infections. This is incorrect. Clinical outcome is dependent on complicated interactions between the host, virus and environment none of which are constant in time.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7934673/

@TheYearOfSmallThings I really wouldn’t fancy long covid for me or anyone. Never mind scarring of the lungs, liver, heart, increased risk of dementia, increased risk of blood clots etc etc There are many high profile longitudinal studies ongoing currently into Long Covid in children (NIH, CLoCK etc) the funding wouldn’t have been granted without the provisional data showing that there is a significant problem. So please don’t minimise what is going on for so many families.

Also the example you use of the common cold: some other coronaviruses and rhinoviruses deemed to be of little concern have been co-evolving with us for a significant time.

This thing is new and along the same lines as SARS and MERS - here’s a paper comparing them with Covid respiratory-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12931-020-01479-w

And according to sage (as of last July) it’s still a realistic possibility that a variant could emerge with a 10% fatality rate (so far it’s been 2-3%).

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007566/S1335_Long_term_evolution_of_SARS-CoV-2.pdf

Don’t minimise, if this thing evolves to get around the innate immune system, as alpha showed signs of doing, kids will be much more vulnerable.

It is wonderful that current variants are less pathogenic, that the vaccination drive has been so successful and that collectively this means we can see some normal life. But don’t get too cocky about it. The medical guidance is there for a reason.

So please don’t minimise what is going on for so many families

I work in a hospital and I am more than aware of the many patients (mostly older or clinically vulnerable) who have died or been left greatly damaged by COVID and/or time in ICU.

I do not think their experience should be used as a lever to increase concern among parents that their children will be similarly affected.

As for funding, this has rightly been allocated across the board to study the effects of COVID in all age groups. It was not given on the basis of evidence that children are greatly affected.

As for medical guidance, the medics I know are worried about their elderly parents but not about their children.

I would, will strengthen her immunity.

@TheYearOfSmallThings many of my friends and colleagues also work in hospitals and/or are highly qualified academics.

I am in no way wanting to drive hysteria or to move away from the point of view that most people who die or who are badly affected long term are the elderly or the vulnerable.

However, to be dismissive of covid for kids whenever the long term implications are unclear and we are mid pandemic seems premature.

I’m so torn. My Ds1 who is 14 was positive when his school jabbed and I booked him in 14 weeks later and again, positive 3 days before. Another 12 weeks up now and DS2 who is 12 also had covid minimally. Been invited for DS3 who is 8 as well, again had it just before Christmas and minimal symptoms. If we weren’t going on holiday abroad in the summer, I would be leaving it … but then it feels wrong to jab them just to avoid 72 hours before ‘will they be positive or negative’ pcr stress before flying.

@sheeplikessleep
We travel a lot and I never allowed it to become a factor in my decision to vaccinate children specifically.
It’ll be fine. We had to test within a 24/48 hours timeframe before travel and we managed just fine. It’s the testing to come back home to the UK that was stressful, but you don’t have to do it at the moment.

Please just listen to your gut instinct and do what you and your daughter think is right for you both based on what you know and at this moment in time.

It's not just a matter of her, though. It's about preventing more mutations.

I'm not sure this is a great persuasion tactic for parents, really. Here's another opportunity for your child to act in the greater good without reference to what's best for them as an individual, because there's not been nearly enough of that over the past couple of years. Yeah, that sounds fucking tempting. I'm fairly agnostic on the vaccine for this age group, might well get it for mine at some point, but it certainly won't be because of any 'it's not just about them' considerations. You can shove that where the sun doesn't shine.

@HardyBuckette I am sort of in agreement with you there - my DS received a certificate post vaccination saying “well done for doing your part to protect the NHS”. It pissed me off. I got him vacc for his own benefit.

As for preventing mutations, well it’s true the less opportunity the virus has to spread in populations, the less likelihood we will see variants that are geared to immune evasion/vaccine escape …. But an individual child isn’t going to be responsible for that!
I think the hope is it will attenuate and become more stable over time but really too early to say what way it’s going to go.

[quote Robinni]@HardyBuckette I am sort of in agreement with you there - my DS received a certificate post vaccination saying “well done for doing your part to protect the NHS”. It pissed me off. I got him vacc for his own benefit.

As for preventing mutations, well it’s true the less opportunity the virus has to spread in populations, the less likelihood we will see variants that are geared to immune evasion/vaccine escape …. But an individual child isn’t going to be responsible for that!
I think the hope is it will attenuate and become more stable over time but really too early to say what way it’s going to go.[/quote]

Sigh.

No single raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood.

[quote Robinni]@TheYearOfSmallThings I really wouldn’t fancy long covid for me or anyone. Never mind scarring of the lungs, liver, heart, increased risk of dementia, increased risk of blood clots etc etc There are many high profile longitudinal studies ongoing currently into Long Covid in children (NIH, CLoCK etc) the funding wouldn’t have been granted without the provisional data showing that there is a significant problem. So please don’t minimise what is going on for so many families.

Also the example you use of the common cold: some other coronaviruses and rhinoviruses deemed to be of little concern have been co-evolving with us for a significant time.

This thing is new and along the same lines as SARS and MERS - here’s a paper comparing them with Covid respiratory-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12931-020-01479-w

And according to sage (as of last July) it’s still a realistic possibility that a variant could emerge with a 10% fatality rate (so far it’s been 2-3%).

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1007566/S1335_Long_term_evolution_of_SARS-CoV-2.pdf

Don’t minimise, if this thing evolves to get around the innate immune system, as alpha showed signs of doing, kids will be much more vulnerable.

It is wonderful that current variants are less pathogenic, that the vaccination drive has been so successful and that collectively this means we can see some normal life. But don’t get too cocky about it. The medical guidance is there for a reason.[/quote]

Excellent post, thank you.

It's just too bad that a significant portion of the population is intellectually incapable of understanding what you've stated.

Everyone allowing their child "bodily autonomy" - will you be expecting them to receive free treatment on the NHS and benefits support from taxpayers if they are affected by long covid?

Or if they become severely ill with a future mutation?

I think what a lot of parents are saying though is that their children have already had multiple infections. Whilst I don’t advocate natural immunity as a strategy as it comes with risks of you happen to have natural immunity from infection as you became infected before vaccines were available then immunologically I don’t think there is that much difference to having the vaccine. In fact if you’ve had several infections you may have some immunity which is better as you will have generated mucosal antibodies whereas the vaccines do not. DS has had both omicron strains testing positive with cold symptoms for 8-10 days. I caught the second omicron infection off him and I am triple vaccinated. I am still suffering with tinnitus one year after my vaccine and I don’t see the point in risking that for DS when he has had two infections. Of course a vaccine would work as a booster but as it’s unlikely to stop him catching the next variant anyway he might as well just get the next variant as he is no longer immunologically naive. Vaccinated people are still catching covid and getting long covid. Whilst the vaccine does reduce chance of catching it everyone seems to get omicron eventually so I honestly think most vaccinated children will still go on to get covid at some point after being vaccinated. If there was a better more up to date vaccine it might be a different risk benefit calculation.

It does seem odd, also, that children are being offered this vaccination for a virus in which the majority have very minimal symptoms. And yet there’s a chicken pox vaccine available, and chicken pox are arguably much worse, but the nhs deem that as not worthwhile in terms of spending.

I do think that if children and the vaccine were taken totally separately to the ‘greater good’ and treated like others, it wouldn’t be offered as it is, it would be seen as cost outweighing the benefits.

Also, long covid, is essentially post viral fatigue.. I do think that the approach to this needs to change too. In public sector you still get full pay , not counted as sick leave, for as long as you need.. currently have one colleague who has been off on full pay for 2 years, and another for a year..

We have to live with this now and I do think we should see the little symptoms etc as a positive- especially if you think back to the beginning of the pandemic.

My dcs have already had covid and had minor symptoms. I know the chances are minimal but people have experienced side effects from the vaccine. For this reason, I’ve opted not to have my dcs vaccinated.

@KosherDill

*Sigh.

No single raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood.*

Precisely, which is why I was only in partial agreement with @HardyBuckette.

What I was trying to say is I found it irritating to receive this “you’ve saved the nhs” certificate… I would have been happier to have received “you have contributed to the health, well being and economic prosperity of your community, you have protected yourself from potential health problems, you have helped build the human wall of defence against covid” …. But perhaps all of that wouldn’t fit on a certificate

90% vacc is what is needed to break transmission and we have that in the U.K. allowing the freedoms we currently enjoy, but there is a risk of complacency now that restrictions are lifted. And the lack of vaccine equity is dire - if we don’t get people vaccinated in poorer countries, for many diseases, and attend to their health needs we will end up with a shit show of communicable disease spread.

As for others intellectual capabilities, I studied for a decade, not everyone has that experience - which is why I’ve tried to post sensible information in as unbiased a fashion as possible to try and provide an alternative to the tide of disinformation people are frequently presented with on forums and social media.

The communication of science has been pretty poor save for the daily broadcasts which served to get through to the masses to a certain extent. I’m not sure if presenting scientific information alongside politicians whom people may be distrustful of was the right tack really.

What’s sad is all the information regarding the current situation is all there, and freely available, it’s just that people don’t know where to look or how to interpret it.

@JS87 the risk of long covid is halved in adults who are vaccinated, www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o407
data for kids unavailable as only a few months into the vaccine drive.

The British Society for Immunology prepared a pretty nifty infographic which explains the difference between naturally acquired protection vs. vaccination.
www.immunology.org/coronavirus/connect-coronavirus-public-engagement-resources/covid-immunity-infection-vaccine

Reinfection risk is higher following a natural infection
www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know

Clinical outcomes of future infections cannot be extrapolated from experiences of prior infection. The severity of infection depends on complicated interactions between the host, virus and environment none of which are constant in time. For anyone thinking oh I/DH/DC etc. will be fine because we were last time, this can’t be relied on, it may be fine yes, but don’t take it as an absolute. Reasons outlined via link.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7934673/

Regarding a “better up to date vaccine” this is another common misconception, that because there are break through infections and widespread transmission that the vaccine is crap. The purpose of vaccination is to prevent morbidity and mortality - to keep you out of hospital and stop you dying. The vaccines are still doing a good job with this, it also would make zero sense to manufacture a vaccine for a less pathogenic version of the virus, leaving vulnerability towards variants with morphology more akin to the original variants and as follows the illness induced.

@Michellexxx chicken pox causes an itchy, spotty rash. Covid is a serious vascular disease with primary symptoms of respiratory ailment. academic.oup.com/jalm/article/6/5/1099/6317833
This is why vaccination for covid is funded and chicken pox is not.

What long covid is has not been fully elucidated. A meta-analysis done last August documents 50 long term effects, but research is still in the early stages.

www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95565-8

Please see figure 2 in that paper for a clear outline of the list of symptoms so far.

Expect we’ll have a clearer idea circa 2025/26. Sorry you feel resentful over your colleagues sick leave.