5 - 11 year olds to be allowed vaccine in wales

[RedToothBrush]

Adrian Masters @adrianmasters84
1/3 The health minister has confirmed that children aged between 5 and 11 year olds here in Wales will be offered covid vaccinations.

2/3 Eluned Morgan told Senedd Members: “Whilst yet to be published officially by the JCVI, I have received JCVI advice regarding the vaccination of all 5-11 year olds and I have agreed it and we are working with health boards on implementing the offer.”

3/3 There’s been a delay to the official announcement, reportedly because of disagreements between the UK Government and the JCVI. Although it’s thought to have made its decision more than a week ago, the recommendation is not expected to be announced until the 21st February.

I'm in England so I don't know which why the government will go for England on this yet, but it looks likely that all 5 to 11 year olds will be offered the vaccine on a not urgent basis.

I'm not entirely sure how i feel about this nor what i will do.

Its not an issue with travel to most places (there are places its now an issue though) and there are potential implications for travel insurance (you may not be covered for covid related healthcare if you have been offered the vaccine).

I don't know if having it purely for travel purposes in this age group is a good thing or not.

DS is 7. He has had covid.

Genuinely don't know what we will do.

There is always the prospect of a new variant and whether being vaxxed is better for children.

In terms of disruption to school, i think the horse has well and truly bolted on that one.

I don't think im alone in thinking like this and will struggle to know what to do.

But beside that, it’s just absolute hysteria to believe children need this vaccine and clearly an overhang of Project Fear. Why? If you look at the risks, an 88-year-old has 8,700 times the risk of death compared to an 8-year-old. This isn’t an equal opportunity disease

I see you've been linked to many sources before - but briefly - death is not the only consequence of coronavirus and you are misusing statistics to push an agenda here unfortunately.

It has been offered to 5-11 year olds. You do not need to take up this offer if you disagree.

I remember the heady days when vaccinating the elderly and vulnerable would be enough. Now….nothing will ever be enough for some people .
I also think you are misunderstaing how vaccination and herd immunity works @hamstersarse

Added to the fact we have replicated evidence from all over the world demonstrating that risk of death, hospitlisation, severe illness and long term complications are substantially lower after vaccination in adults.

I am surpised that anyone is still pushing the idea the only the elderly and CEV needed to be vaccinated, in the face of all this evidence @hamstersarse.

I think when most people understand the difference between relative risk and absolute risk, and the way the 95% efficacy stats have been used, they are appalled

I think I will vaccinate my 8 year old. She has asked for the vaccination

@hamstersarse I’d assume from your last comment that post covid complications in children have never been a consideration for you. Sadly, many people do seem to think that long covid is just “feeling a bit tired” or something that can actually be explained by lockdown, but thankfully now there is plenty of scientific literature showing that long covid/post covid complications have a biological basis and can cause problems like micro clotting, lung damage, neurological damage and inflammatory problems.

While it’s relatively rare for children to have these complications it does happen - and has happened to thousands of children across the UK. Far more than have suffered serious complications post-vaccine.

@hamstersarse

You have failed to give any evidence supporting this claim. Repeating "The Science", isn't exactly an answer. So many posters have explained it is not the case, but you just repeat the same old thing.

Re: death, I was replying to your claim that only >80 year olds and the CEV needed to be vaccinated.

And how exactly do these vaccines give us herd immunity?
If you read replies to your post, you'd get an answer. Here's mine (again).

For the general population, it's likely to be an annual programme for certain groups.This, alongside repeated exposure/infection with coronavirus is what will allow the vast majority of individuals to build robust immunity over time, which in turn will protect those who cannot (i.e., herd immunity).

[quote BewareTheLibrarians]@hamstersarse I’d assume from your last comment that post covid complications in children have never been a consideration for you. Sadly, many people do seem to think that long covid is just “feeling a bit tired” or something that can actually be explained by lockdown, but thankfully now there is plenty of scientific literature showing that long covid/post covid complications have a biological basis and can cause problems like micro clotting, lung damage, neurological damage and inflammatory problems.

While it’s relatively rare for children to have these complications it does happen - and has happened to thousands of children across the UK. Far more than have suffered serious complications post-vaccine.[/quote]
This is the thing.

Risks from COVID are tiny for children. Risks from vaccination are even smaller.

On a balance of risks and benefits, including how children benefit from reduced rates of infection & transmission, vaccination makes sense, which is why it is being offered.

The margin of benefit is small, hence why CW et al have stressed it is an individual decision.

@parietal

Can I take my English kids to Wales & get it done?

The vaccines have been tested on millions of people & are known to be safe & effective. My kids want to be able to travel to visit family in Europe, and have been waiting ages to be allowed this. I just wish we could get it quicker - there is no reason to delay for those who want it.

There is no long term safety data, for very obvious reasons. For this reason my children will not be having it.

[quote BewareTheLibrarians]@hamstersarse I’d assume from your last comment that post covid complications in children have never been a consideration for you. Sadly, many people do seem to think that long covid is just “feeling a bit tired” or something that can actually be explained by lockdown, but thankfully now there is plenty of scientific literature showing that long covid/post covid complications have a biological basis and can cause problems like micro clotting, lung damage, neurological damage and inflammatory problems.

While it’s relatively rare for children to have these complications it does happen - and has happened to thousands of children across the UK. Far more than have suffered serious complications post-vaccine.[/quote]
Thousands of children in the U.K. have suffered neurological damage and micro clothing in the U.K.? It’s not that I don’t believe you, I just would like to see a source for this information

Just like everyone else we are weighing the pros and the cons right now and every additional puzzle piece helps. I have a lot of substantiated info in the cons column and very little in the pros - making travel easier/possible being the only reason for getting the vaccine at the moment, and that’s certainly not a good enough reason.

I've just read this thread and would like to applaud @leafyygreens for calm, measured, intelligent rebuttals to some of the nonsense being spouted. You've done a great job of clearing waters that are being deliberately muddied. Thanks

@Catkitkat I’m not going to be a huge amount of help right now as I’m trying to go to bed (despite the wind’s best efforts! )

The ONS has the numbers of children with long covid. Then if you look at the breakdown of symptoms (fatigue/heart/breathing/neurological/PANS/inflammatory), you can see which symptoms are caused by which system.

So my ds for eg has heart and inflammatory problems. The heart problems were either triggered by the virus, or by the MISC that the virus triggered. Children experiencing fatigue, shortness of breath and palpitations are doing so either because the virus has affected their heart, or it’s triggered vascular (blood vessel) problems. Covid is known to do both of these, along with causing microclotting which iirc was also thought to be responsible for breathing issues.

Some children are reporting PANS/PANDA (a neuropsychiatric condition) after covid.

Is sounds scary and hyperbolic to say “thousands of children have neurological/microclotting/inflammatory/vascular problems” (and remember it’s not thousands of each condition, it’s thousands when combined together) but the reality is that lots of viruses cause these problems. If children are feeling ill, it’s because something is affecting a system in their body. They’re not just feeling ill for no reason. It just sounds scarier to name the system behind what’s causing the illness as we don’t usually think about that.

There is no long term safety data, for very obvious reasons. For this reason my children will not be having it.

Are you concerned on the lack of long term safety data on children being infected with Covid? It always strikes me as so curious when someone is worried about vaccines (where for all vaccines, long term effects appearing more than 8 weeks after vaccination are pretty much unknown) but not about the virus, when diseases are known to have long term impacts, SARS viruses more so, and we have data on medium term impacts in children.

It seems such a mismatch in concern levels. Based on the data on the risks of both Covid and the vaccine, and my understanding of how vaccines work and the extreme unlikelihood of a side effect appearing so long after mass vaccination began, my children will be vaccinated.

I do think it's somehow linked to Andrew Wakefield's lies about MMR Jassy. That and the conspiracy theories that abound. A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on.

@JassyRadlett I agree with this:
It seems such a mismatch in concern levels. Based on the data on the risks of both Covid and the vaccine, and my understanding of how vaccines work and the extreme unlikelihood of a side effect appearing so long after mass vaccination began, my children will be vaccinated.

EXCEPT that whether or not the child has already had COVID-19 is critical in the decision-making about whether to vaccinate. I would quite possibly push for DD (11 years) to get jabbed, despite her significant phobia of all medical treatments/medicines, if she had not already caught COVID-19 and survived it without developing any ongoing issues. She's already demonstrated that her immune system is up to the challenge of COVID and now has at least some level of immunity. So when deciding about vaccination, it's not quite as simple as 'well the vaccine is less risky than COVID itself'. Yes, vaccination now may well give her even better immunity but she does ALREADY have immunity, so is the (tiny) risk of vaccination still definitely lower than the risk of her catching COVID again and becoming seriously ill and/or developing long COVID?

That is my thinking @BlibBlabBlob

My DS had asymptomatic Delta with no problems. Didn’t catch Omicron from us or school. Therefore I conclude he is not one of the tiny amount of children who will suffer from complications from Covid. That he has some immunity now from having Covid.

"But beside that, it’s just absolute hysteria to believe children need this vaccine and clearly an overhang of Project Fear"

Complete rubbish. The jcvi are not known for being hysterical and quite happily sat on the fence about vaccinating 12 + kids purely on health benefits Vs risk grounds. We all remember wider factors such as not missing school and the associated risks of that had to be taken into account by the CMO.

I'd imagine the benefits are less significant for under 11's but the risk seems a lot lower too do there must be an overall benefit for them to make this recommendation. We also have studies that demonstrate reduction in the risk of long covid which is rare in kids but quite distressing for children who suffer it and their parents.

EXCEPT that whether or not the child has already had COVID-19 is critical in the decision-making about whether to vaccinate. I would quite possibly push for DD (11 years) to get jabbed, despite her significant phobia of all medical treatments/medicines, if she had not already caught COVID-19 and survived it without developing any ongoing issues. She's already demonstrated that her immune system is up to the challenge of COVID and now has at least some level of immunity. So when deciding about vaccination, it's not quite as simple as 'well the vaccine is less risky than COVID itself'. Yes, vaccination now may well give her even better immunity but she does ALREADY have immunity, so is the (tiny) risk of vaccination still definitely lower than the risk of her catching COVID again and becoming seriously ill and/or developing long COVID?

I’m not sure we have data around the risks of reinfection and that subsequent cases are invariably milder/lower risk - have you seen any? I haven’t seen any but would love to if there are studies.

I know there are studies on the immune response of infection + vaccination vs infection alone, though in adults. I’ll also admit that I’m not in a sanguine ‘all future variants are going to be as mild as Omicron’ camp, and I’d rather take a precautionary approach with an incredibly safe vaccine.

Watching the news the Wales the argument was to protect them from future variants?

However, wouldn’t it be better to wait? And see if that does happen? We know antibodies from vaccines don’t last that long. Rather than give them a vaccine that was designed for wild Covid, they are working on new vaccines. I’m just going to bide my time in this. I see no rush to get my child vaccinated right now. (Older one is though as he hadn’t had Covid and situation was different last October).

"However, wouldn’t it be better to wait?"

Is it clear that future vaccines will be offered to children though? It may be restricted to vulnerable categories or certain age groups. May be best to see what the living with covid plan looks like next week.

Additionally studies from sa suggest that Omicron infection gives antibodies against OmiCron but not others variants such as ba2 maybe? So if you child was infected in the last few month a wild type vaccine may give broader protection

Have we seen the reasons for the JVI recommendation? Last time it was only swayed in favour of vaccinating due to potential school time missed. Once isolation has gone this isn’t a concern as much.

Just looked. So it’s to protect ‘a very small number of children who may become ill in a future wave’. And there’s no rush.

Not compelling enough for me right now. I’ll keep an open mind as DS gets older.

Good. I hope this will be available in England soon.

I think it is going to be offered in England too.

It’s great to have the choice and everyone’s circumstances will be different.

JCVI sorry