Annoyed that masks can be a way that people are judged

[Twattergy]

I went to a hairdresser today. All staff wearing masks. I asked on entry ' do you require me to wear a mask?' and receptionist said 'no we can't force you to, it's up to you'. So I didn't put one on. I had one with me, but now it isn't mandatory, I made my choice based on fact that I have been tripled jabbed and recovered from covid 2 weeks ago. I kept having the urge to tell the staff 'I have been tripled jabbed and recently recovered from covid which is the main reason I'm not wearing a mask'..but I thought why should I have to justify this? Any of the masked people in there could be unvaccinated, or even knowingly have symptoms of Covid, but because they are wearing a mask it is assumed they are doing 'the right thing'. And me in no mask, I think many people would assume I'm being anti social, when in fact I have been highly responsible with vaccination. I'm annoyed at the huge potential for judgements around mask wearing now that it isn't mandatory. (I would wear a mask where is is mandatory eg London transport or health care settings BTW I'm not a radical anti masker). Ifnyou were sat next to me in the hairdresser would you judge me? Would you want me to tell you I was fully vaxxed and recently recovered?

I would wear a mask in the hairdressers.

But if you've just recovered from covid you're neither going to catch nor pass it on. So I can understand why you wouldn't bother.

@Metacat

Haven't RTFT, & won't. The one in which a majority dismissed the pleas of bereaved posters to argue that a C+ child should be taken to the footie upset me for days. But I didn't reply to that, so here's my tuppence on this. The logic behind my response for both is similar. If you dismiss it as mere virtue-signalling etc., perhaps have the courage to ask yourself what you get from making that assumption...

1. "Putting a mask on now would make zero difference." How can people continually assert this, in all seriousness, in the face of the consensus judgement of thousands of scientists globally specialising in epidemiology etc. alone, & the consequent conclusions drawn by dozens of national governments, all with varied perspectives & motives? It actually makes me laugh each time I read it.

2. "How do I know that someone wearing a mask has done the most important thing to protect me and others - namely to be fully vaccinated". Self-evidently, you can't. In the light of this, the only reason I can see for even mentioning this is to imply that, because you can't have the reassurance of others having taken these particular steps to protect you & others, you feel justified in not taking an entirely different particular step to protect them. This would be playground logic.

3. "Performative". As you say yourself, you can't know others' medical circumstances or motivations. To leap to the assumption that their decision to wear a mask in this context is a kind of virtue-signalling is logically inconsistent at best. At worst, it's... well, to put it politely, an easy way out for you, in giving you a sense of having the moral high-ground in not wearing one - a kind of inverse virtue-signalling!

I'd interpret the available information rather differently in your situation.

1. My GCSE biology (tbh, if I had a medical doctorate or was in cancer research, this wouldn't change my mind on this) is simply not enough for me to dismiss a global scientific & political consensus (and that c- word's important here, addressing in 9 simple letters the popular, "but some scientists disagree" rebuttal).

2. There are a range of things we can do to protect each other. They all interact to maximise safety (see: Swiss-cheese model). Some are visible, some aren't (as if this were relevant). Quite simply, I hope that other people will do what they can within reason to protect me, and I choose to do everything I can within reason to protect them.

3. Lastly, & most importantly, I'd recognise that I can't possibly know why these people are wearing masks, but the most logical assumption by far is that some, at least, are worried about their own, &/or others', health, or are showing consideration for others who may this way. And probability dictates that there's a fair chance one or more will, indeed, be clinically extremely vulnerable or have regular direct contact with a CEV person. So, I'll wear a mask for an hour to help others be, & feel, safer.

When did it become necessary to explain things like scientific consensus, common sense & empathy? And when did it become morally shameful to do so (as people with my views are so often accused of virtue-signalling etc.) I know people who leave their homes only for essentials because Covid still presents such a risk to them (and, again, to pre-empt the inevitable facile responses, far more of a risk than flu or measles or whatever at this point). Most of them suffer in silence. What's happened to us, that we're so reluctant to make a small concession to our comfort for an hour that could gift them freedom & confidence after almost 2 years?

Well said Metacat

Sorry, folks, relative new to MN, & mistakenly thought it was OK to answer the first poster's q. without reading what everyone else thought about it first. Respecting how other people think & feel's really important to me - you may have got that from the above - so I'll try not to transgress in this way again in case someone finds it upsetting or irrational enough to undermines my arguments.

#Irony.

Woah, OK, things move fast here. That was a response to the dismissal of my thoughts on the basis that I'd not done sufficient research into the full thread! Not anything that followed. :)

Very good post metacat.

It won't be good for my blood pressure to hang around, so I'm heading off now, but thanks Flaxmeadow & Goooglebox. If my reasoning makes just one person re-think it would mean the world to me. I've seen so much pain & serious illness - physical & mental - caused by this anxious fussing over masks by people with no more reasoned justification than don'twannaaa, that narratives like this (everyone else masked; would mean little to the OP to wear one; still decides not to) that I choose to say something every-so-often when invited (they did ask, after all!) It's upsetting to see so many people's lives being so desperately constrained - in many cases, damaged - by others in the name of some perverse interpretation of personal freedom focussed largely on comfort & myrightsyeah, plus a reductive understanding of the mindblowing complexity of the science (just read the earlier, entirely unironic "But look at Japan!" post responding to someone trying to explain this!) And that's before the comically absurd justifications. It's so easy. At the moment, IF it means little to you to wear a mask, please just do it, for now. It would be simply life-changing for some people if everyone who could, just... did!

@Flaxmeadow

I think some people don't like to see others wearing masks because it reminds them that we are still in a pandemic. Minimising the situation is a coping mechanism. In their minds if there are no reminders, masks, lockdown, vaccine etc, then the virus does not exist or 'its only mild' 'just a cold' etc

Others wearing masks makes me feel distinctly uncomfortable. I struggle to hear/understand what they're saying because I can't easily differentiate sounds even without masks. I find they mean I'm forced to look at the wearer's eyes and eye contact is more than uncomfortable. I lose that little bit of information the mouth gives me about any possible hidden meaning behind what someone is saying. Being surrounded by a sea of masks makes me deeply anxious basically and shuts me further out of society.

So let's not forget covid is not the only vulnerability.

@Metacat - I agree with some of your points but really don't think mask efficiency in the real world has had the impact scientists hoped for. Maybe in a lab experiment it's different, but you only have to compare transmission figures from schools who insisted on masks to those that didn't, or look at countries who have religiously enforced mask mandates only to see their figures shoot up, to see that it has had very little impact.

I agree that in a situation where someone is having to spend time in close contact with you and they would prefer you to wear a mask, then it's polite and considerate to do so. However, if all this is doing is giving a false sense of security to someone clinically vulnerable then that's probably not a great idea. Unless everyone present is wearing a properly fitted ffp2 or ffp3 mask and ideally has tested, then with community infection rates currently so high, they would probably be safer waiting until the figures drop before venturing into such a high risk environment.

Nojudgement, just caught this before going. Thanks for a reasoned response from an opposing view - always good to hear. :)

Re: false sense of security - I'd honestly say it's pretty darn unlikely that a CEV person would get a false sense of security & eg. put themselves at risk by standing to close bc of someone wearing a mask! After almost 2 years of knowing that it they get Covid it'll probably end/change their life?! No, in most cases, they'll be grateful for the mask AND keep their distance! Who wouldn't, in their predicament, when numbers are still so high? I speak from personal experience (my own contacts), too.

Re: waiting til the figures drop before venturing into such a high-risk situation - Agree, & those I know are doing that. Unfortunately, while the case above relates to the hairdresser's, there's an infinity of other situations in which people think similarly. What about the proportion of the 1+ in 60 nationally CEVs having to take the bus/tube to work / to go to the pharmacy to pick up regular meds / to shop for some unusual essential for their particular circumstances? They've a right to do this safely unless there's a really good justification against this that honestly seems to have been forgotten by some.

Re: mask-efficiency in the real world - I see this in 2 ways, & both lead to the same conclusion. 1) On a large, population-level scale, there's still a consensus that it makes enough of a difference to be worth it... 2) On a small, personal scale, it would make a world of difference to the person standing next to you for whom a trip to the pharmacy is a weekly dance with death.

It comes down to cost-benefit analysis for me. For a tiny minority, the cost of wearing a mask's genuinely too high to offset its potential ability to save lives. For many, it just isn't.

My unvaccinated sibling is double masked on public transport and super careful.
I also have an unvaccinated elderly relative who rarely goes anywhere and if she does wears a mask.
I wouldn't equate no mask with anti vax personally.

*Dance with death something of an exaggeration(!), & want to take care not to exaggerate in an attempt to reason convincingly. Too much hyperbole on both sides! Just trying to convey how quite genuinely risky it is for some people nowadays to be out & about. It's cruel beyond words they're living like this, & they've been forgotten. In some areas, life must indeed go on without them - we've probably seen the last of the lockdowns. In other areas, like mask-wearing, our small gestures of consideration & care can transform these people's experiences of life in a really direct, meaningful way these days. Who wouldn't want that?

I'm now procrastinating on a massive scale, & appear to have taken over the thread (sorry). Going!

I don't give a monkeys who wears a mask and if directly asked to wear one (my Brazilian wax lady requires it) I will be other than that I will never put one on again.

[quote Twattergy]@rainrainraincamedowndowndown I understand that I will be judged by some. But isn't it weird that a fully jabbed and recovered from Covid person is assumed to have less respect for others than an unvaxxed person wearing a mask? I understand why that judgement would be made because masks are visible. But it is a flawed logic. I've not seen anyone who says they would judge me accept the flaw in the logic of that judgement. In a world where some people are vaccinated and others aren't, mask are not a true indicator of how caring or responsible a person is.[/quote]
Vaccines aren't an indicator of how caring or responsible a person is either. Lots of people got vaccinated so that they could party or socialise, not because they were worried about others.

They got vaccinated so that they could continue social behaviour that was not caring or responsible during a pandemic at all. They could have passed it to many people.

Weren't some people offered discounts from Uber eats and deliveroo as incentives to be jabbed? I'm in Ireland so I'm not sure if that went ahead but I do remember that being discussed in the UK

@Metacat - Your posts have definitely made me think a bit more about what it must be like at the moment having to go out feeling so vulnerable. It must be really tough and I'm definitely going to be more mindful of the people around me.Take care of yourself & I really hope the rates drop soon so that life can begin to return to normal for everybody.

@Metacat

*Dance with death something of an exaggeration(!), & want to take care not to exaggerate in an attempt to reason convincingly. Too much hyperbole on both sides! Just trying to convey how quite genuinely risky it is for some people nowadays to be out & about. It's cruel beyond words they're living like this, & they've been forgotten. In some areas, life must indeed go on without them - we've probably seen the last of the lockdowns. In other areas, like mask-wearing, our small gestures of consideration & care can transform these people's experiences of life in a really direct, meaningful way these days. Who wouldn't want that?

I'm now procrastinating on a massive scale, & appear to have taken over the thread (sorry). Going!

It does feel risky. Just had a discussion today with DP about it — we're both CEV, and with the infection rates rising in our area, combined with the lifting of mask rules and a general public feeling of "what pandemic? wasn't that last year?", he's in favour of us both basically going back into shielding mode for a while. I'm not so keen, and want to keep at least going out to do our own shopping, but this whole situation is not easy, emotionally, relationally, economically…

I haven't been to hairdresser throughout the pandemic because I'm severely immunosuppressed and the risk is too high.
This won't improve any time soon because of the plan to abandon isolation for positive cases in March.
I just cut and dye my own. I feel sorry for my hairdresser as I used to be a good customer ££

[quote Twattergy]@NYnewstart but the unvaccinated customer next to me who has gone to the hairdresser despite having symptoms isn't judged because they happen to be wearing a mask?[/quote]
When isolation ends there will be plenty of folks like that! Not just 'the unvaccinated'

All this chat about masks yet most are triple jabbed. Clear no one believes the jabs work.

@lorrainecleaver

All this chat about masks yet most are triple jabbed. Clear no one believes the jabs work.

Swiss cheese.

I kept having the urge to tell the staff 'I have been tripled jabbed and recently recovered from covid which is the main reason I'm not wearing a mask'..but I thought why should I have to justify this?

What on earth are you rambling on about?

You asked if you need to wear a mask, they said no. In the real world that was the end of it.

Everything else you’re fussing about was just in your own head.

YOU are the judgemental one in the scenario that you described.

YOU are the one sitting there judging the people with masks, jumping to conclusions about how they see you.

There’s zero evidence to suggest anyone but you was doing any judging

Get over yourself.

@lorrainecleaver

All this chat about masks yet most are triple jabbed. Clear no one believes the jabs work.

I've had 4 vaccines. Still might not have worked for me as I'm immunocompromised. So yes still wearing FFP2 masks and now no longer going into shops

If masks are so important when can we expect to see the removal of the mandate reflected in the daily figures? It has now been ten full days (well from midnight tonight technically) and every day all the three key figures have been in the green.

I am concluding that some people would judge me negatively; some people wouldn't. So, cant win

That’s life, OP - people have different opinions about what is the right thing to do in pretty much every situation.

Reminds me of the story of a senior clergyman in charge of a cathedral. Under his leadership, the place developed a reputation for being innovative and a bit radical in its worship. Someone asked him how he decided what to do, and was he worried he had gone too far. He replied: “With every innovation, I tend to get six letters of complaint and six congratulating me on the excellent quality of the service. So I put all the letters in the bin and do what I think is right.”

Have the courage of your convictions (even though I personally would have worn a mask even if they were not.)

Back again, irresistibly, after giving up on work for the day!

nojudgementthere - Thank you, that honestly does mean a lot.

2X4B523P (heck, that was a pain to type) - I've not got the faintest idea. I don't begin to understand the hugely complex interplay between the lifting of mask mandates and the infinity of other variables involved. There's, wow, stuff like... the proportion of people continuing to wear masks regardless; the waning immunity following 1st & 2nd jabs; the cumulative effect of increasing 3rd & 4th jabs; possible shifts in behaviour over recent months; travel to & from other countries in their own continually shifting circumstances; possibly even the weather, for crying out loud... Oh, and that whole novel virus thing, too, perhaps? Any single one of these must represent enough material for another lifetime or three of research by anyone so inclined - and thank God some people are!

It continually astonishes me that people think things are so simple that they post smug Gotchas like this.

And to pre-empt any inevitable, "Well, how do we know masks are effective, then?"... From data collected globally across almost 2 years studied by (tens of?) thousands of people, many of them specialised enough to be able to say, in disturbingly enthusiastic tones (paraphrased from a recent lecture I watched; it made me smile), "Well, I've spent the last 20 years studying this particular microbe, and..."

I choose to trust in this consensus. If I didn't trust in it - in this encycolopaedia (new collective noun?) of astonishing global expertise, brilliant heads bent together over a single issue in a way that's seldom happened in the history of humanity - then, by logical extension, I'd have NO reason to listen to my one, local GP ever again, or to put myself under a surgeon's knife (perish the thought!), or to buy that car with the new engine model (could be lethal!)

There's a world of complexity behind the nice green numbers.