Course requires vaccination

[WineGetsMeThroughIt]

There is a training course my office wants to send me on. The course is roughly £1200, so not something I would pay for myself although I really want to go on it. When I called before Christmas to register they told me I must be double vaccinated in order to attend their courses and they were working on updating their rules so that people attending must be triple vaccinated.

Can they legally do this?

I'm not here to get into a big debate about why I'm not vaccinated and or take any abuse about it. I just want to know if a business can legally refuse my business if I'm not vaccinated.

Yes they can.

My understanding is that yes they can unless you have a medical exemption. If this is the case, have you spoken to them about it?

Yes, they can do it. I presume people booking want to know they are spending their day with those who are vaccinated, especially when they don’t know anyone.

Yes they can

So either you cough up £1200 / miss out / get vaccinated

I know which i would do in your shoes!

@TidyDancer

My understanding is that yes they can unless you have a medical exemption. If this is the case, have you spoken to them about it?

I have. They said it was because some member of their staff had underlying medical conditions so they want to protect their instructors. It's understandable. I don't necessarily agree with it, I was more just curious to know if people can make up their own rules. Things with the virus have calmed down considerably since mid December so I'm trying to get in touch with them to see if they've changed their mind and allow me in with proof of a negative lateral flow each day

Odd that you’ve not considered the practical consequences of not getting vaccinated

This may well impact your career prospects too

If you choose not to vaccinate that’s your choice
People who do want to vaccinate can choose to not spend time with you
Your choice is your choice but it’s fair other people can make theirs too

Unless you’re medically exempt, I’m which case I’m sure they’ll make an exception for you

You have a diagnosed underlying health condition which medically prohibits you from getting the vaccine?

Yes they can. I was 5 months into an 8 month social work course (live lessons 5 hours a day 5 days a week) when they informed us that to complete the last stage of the course we had to be double vaccinated. 38 out of 50 students immediately dropped out.

Yes I think they could. But if you have a medical reason for not being vaccinated then perhaps you would have a case.

They could choose to not allow you in for simply “we don’t want to” if they liked. Exactly like “you don’t want to” take the vaccine.

Fair enough. I just wanted to check. I can do an online course if I need to

I know that employers currently do not have the right to ask if you are fully vaccinated except where it relates to health professionals and care homes. But a private provider of training courses I guess can set their own rules.

I am very pro vax but I am against this move towards it being compulsory. Can you ask for their policy/how they are going to keep your private medical data safe and confidential and what systems they have in place?

Of course they can.

Any business can refuse your services for any reason they want.

But a private provider of training courses I guess can set their own rules

Under what regulation?, My understanding (in England) would be that they can only require the covid pass, they cannot require you to actually be vaccinated, and a covid pass includes testing as a way to get the pass, the venue cannot know which method the pass was obtained in.

So the people who are saying it's possible, what grounds?

I think anti-discrimination laws forbid this, but a lot of laws are being bent or ignored at the moment.

It is rightly against the law to bar people from using a service because of race, religion, sexuality, weight etc.

Medical discrimination is unlawful too. I don’t think a business can deny services to someone on the grounds that they are HIV positive, for example. Discrimination over vaccination status is still discrimination.

The question is more under what grounds are they not allowed to ask? Any business can refuse service to anyone for any reason except for a protected characteristic. So if non vaccination is due to a disability for example it’s against the law for them to require it. If it isn’t, they can refuse to have that person on their course.

Yes they can. And good on them protecting their staff.

If they were protecting their staff the be asking for daily testing, mask wearing and social distancing. Not vaccines

Yes. Mandating Carers and nhs staff will be the thin end of the wedge. Other businesses can also choose to do so. As can organisations such as course providers.

I also don’t agree with it (and I’m fully vaccinated).

@Comefromaway

The question is more under what grounds are they not allowed to ask? Any business can refuse service to anyone for any reason except for a protected characteristic. So if non vaccination is due to a disability for example it’s against the law for them to require it. If it isn’t, they can refuse to have that person on their course.

This is correct. The commonly held belief is that it is the other way around (you can’t exclude any group from anything). That is not right. Unless you have a protected characteristic you can be refused service.

Some internal rules (eg we will not allow anyone black on our course) will breach the law. Th eissue here is if you can find this vaccination requirement is similar - eg if more BAME people do not have the vaccine or more women of child bearing age do not than men due to covid issues of periods and pregnancy then you might be able to argue the rul breached sex or race discrimination provisions of the Equality Act 2010. However other than in a few cases, time after time since March 2020 have accepted the state's power to be as unreasonable as it likes during this pandemic so I suspect such test cases would be lost. I am unvaccinated and now am in effect a second class citizen.

Vaccination status isn't a protected characteristic and therefore discrimination legislation does not apply. There may be a grey area on medical exemptions on the grounds of disability.

Private companies can set their own policies on who they provide services to as long as it doesn't discriminate against a protected characteristic. So, I could be a hairdresser and only accept blondes as customers for example.

So if you have a medical reason, you can tell them that you are unable to get the vaccine and that refusing to allow you on the course because of that would be disability discrimination under the equality act.

Just to be clear, they still CAN refuse to let you on the course, if they believe that is a reasonable and proportionate decision in all of the circumstances. That would include their desire to protect staff and other students.

So it’s not a slam dunk - but it would force them to carefully consider the decision and consider alternative ways to meet the same goal like (for example) allowing you in with negative LFTs, keeping you well away from the vulnerable staff member, etc etc.

@Toanewstart22

Odd that you’ve not considered the practical consequences of not getting vaccinated

This may well impact your career prospects too

Odd that she asked for no judgement and not to get into a vax debate and yet there are comments like this!