5-11 vaccination

[LoudSnoringDog]

Is this age group highly likely to get the vaccine? I can see online that vulnerable children in this age group will but it's not clear as far as I can see re healthy children?

Why can't they just let parents decide. It's not clear cut but there are benefits to vaccination particularly those who have vulnerable family members, and those who need to travel (remember many kids have family in other countries, even a parent who they spend holidays with)

@perfectSmiles3

Very difficult to tell what will happen now, as there are more and more paediatric professionals speaking out and urging the JCVI to urgently review the current child vaccination programme based on live data and experience of the last three months (see open letter to JCVI, Prof Brent Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Hospital, Institute of Child Health). As a parent myself, I am keeping my eyes peeled on the news right now, as I prefer to listen to those treating children as a day job and find it very unnerving that the medical community have now started to become more and more vocal about their concerns. I would certainly not vaccinate my otherwise children right now, especially if they have already had delta.... omicron is not a variant we need to worry about.

Interesting links behind that letter you’ve mentioned above. Not the type of people I’d be trusting my child’s health to.

mobile.twitter.com/karamballes/status/1480162284538318848

Skeptic MPs team up with members from disinformation groups Collateral Global, HART and the Great Barrington Declaration to pen a letter demanding an end to child vaccination

Put out via Toby Young Daily Skeptic by Will Jones, who doesnt mention hes a HART member

Bonus: completely laughable nonsensical “reasoning”:

He claims that time off from vaccine reactions leads to more disruption to learning than allowing covid to just rip through schools

They all just ignore Long Covid, too inconvenient when your promoting mass infection without vaccination

I originally posted the letter referenced above BewareTheLibrarians , i had seen it on msn and the daily express and despite being myself both pro-vaccine and def not of a right wing persuasion I was very interested in WHY it wasn't covered more wildly and likewise WHY its being dismissed as untrustworthy. I ignored fully all the MP's signatories but are you not interested why this letter has been signed by Prof Taylor ,considering his clinical work specialism of child health plus being ex-JCVI? Plus letter also signed by a former president of the Royal College of GP's, a Professor of Public Health, a Professor of Epidemiology, a Public Health Physician formerly working on infectious diseases for the WHO, a former director of the Welsh Communicable Diseases Centre, amongst others?? These are people who are well used to interpreting research papers, I don't see that they all automatically have an ulterior agenda(I agree politicians might) and all they are asking is that the JCVI reassesses the risk-benefit ratio of the vaccines in children in light of the omicron variant and further research. Why is that considered non-sensical? My teen has had their 1st vax, will get their 2nd at some point although I suspect omicron will get there first. Everyone has the right to decide on their child's behalf; to me its fairly obvious that the older your child is ,the balance is more likely to tip in favour of the vaccine but the younger they are it is more likely to tip the other way. We should all have access to info that allows us to make an informed decision and I don't understand this blind belief that the vaccines should never be questioned .

@s1h2o3na

I originally posted the letter referenced above BewareTheLibrarians , i had seen it on msn and the daily express and despite being myself both pro-vaccine and def not of a right wing persuasion I was very interested in WHY it wasn't covered more wildly and likewise WHY its being dismissed as untrustworthy. I ignored fully all the MP's signatories but are you not interested why this letter has been signed by Prof Taylor ,considering his clinical work specialism of child health plus being ex-JCVI? Plus letter also signed by a former president of the Royal College of GP's, a Professor of Public Health, a Professor of Epidemiology, a Public Health Physician formerly working on infectious diseases for the WHO, a former director of the Welsh Communicable Diseases Centre, amongst others?? These are people who are well used to interpreting research papers, I don't see that they all automatically have an ulterior agenda(I agree politicians might) and all they are asking is that the JCVI reassesses the risk-benefit ratio of the vaccines in children in light of the omicron variant and further research. Why is that considered non-sensical? My teen has had their 1st vax, will get their 2nd at some point although I suspect omicron will get there first. Everyone has the right to decide on their child's behalf; to me its fairly obvious that the older your child is ,the balance is more likely to tip in favour of the vaccine but the younger they are it is more likely to tip the other way. We should all have access to info that allows us to make an informed decision and I don't understand this blind belief that the vaccines should never be questioned .

How smart or accomplished they may be is not relevant to the question at hand:

Nobody has a good understanding of what the long term impacts of a covid 19 infection (morbidity) may be (A). Not them, not you, not me. We are all shooting in the dark until we have more information, which is now starting to feed through in dribs and drabs from the US.

What we do have though, is more information on what the short term impacts of vaccination actually are. Tens of millions of doses have now been given and the side effect studied (B) for children under 11.

New research coming out from reputable US sources is all pointing to:

Potential Damage (A) > Potential Damage (B)

Now, if you don't want you to vaccinate your kids under 11 that is your choice as a parent. That is also on you if they also develop long-term problems from a covid infection. That is the decision you are making when you choose not to vaccinate.

For the rest of us who want our under 11s vaccinated, we prefer to protect them against long term problems knowing full well that vaccinations do produce some very rare (and minor) side effects, which children recover from quickly and the long term impacts are well understood.

The precautionary principle very much applies here and the decision is very much still tilted to vaccinating the under 11s.when you look at the data coming out.

JCVI is very much out of psynch with the rest of the world on this one.

And yes, that should worry you.

As a parent, I want that choice.

Just like you do when it comes to not vaccinating your kids.

BambinaJAS , I'm not sure that i've seen any research coming out that suggests that A is larger than B for the under 11 age group in this country but happy to hear it??? Do you not believe what the JVCI are saying?
the below is cut and pasted from the statement by the JVCI published on 22/12/21......"When formulating advice in relation to childhood immunisations, JCVI has consistently held that the main focus of its considerations should be the potential benefits and harms of vaccination to children and young people themselves. The benefits and risks from COVID-19 vaccination in children and young people are finely balanced largely because the risks associated with SARS-CoV2 infection are very low. Of all age groups, children aged 5 to 11 years are those at lowest risks of serious COVID-19.[footnote 1]

JCVI has considered data on:

the risk of hospitalisation, paediatric intensive care unit (PICU) admission, mortality and paediatric inflammatory multisystem syndrome temporally associated with SARS-CoV-2 (PIMS-TS) following SARS-CoV-2 infection

the effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccination in preventing infection, symptomatic disease, hospitalisation, intensive care admission and mortality, and the prevention of PIMS-TS and ‘long COVID’ through protection against infection and disease

the incidence and severity of suspected adverse events following vaccination including available data on the risk of myocarditis following vaccination

estimates of the proportion of 5 to 11 year olds with prior SARS-CoV-2 infection in the UK

a risk-benefit analysis undertaken by the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA)

Has omicron not changed your stance in any way? The argument for the vaccination of younger children becomes less and less valid as more and more children will have had the virus and unless you are currently keeping your child in isolation they are likely going to encounter covid very soon, if they haven't already.

@s1h2o3na Did the JCVI publish any more of their workings for the the risks of the vaccine vs infection, PIMS and long covid?

All I’ve seen is flawed data relying on “limited studies which used total population rather than estimated infections as a denominator for risk” which is not going to give an accurate measure.

(Quote taken from the Twitter thread I’ve now linked to twice.)

Well, I wish the government HAD given me the choice, so perhaps I would not now be dealing with a very poorly boy, who’s been vomiting and feverish all day. 3 days in school last week and now he’s positive and one of the teachers is positive. His big brother is preparing A levels and living in ffp2 mask whilst at home (small flat, one bathroom, I know it’s useless but it’s his initiative not mine).

I 100% would not want to vaccinate my children (8 and 5). I have been x3 jabbed. They have both had Covid and it was so mild we would not have known had I not been testing them due to cases in their school. I don’t know of any children that have been ill. I appreciate that this is my experience not everyones.

The vaccine does not stop you getting and passing on Covid - so limited impact on passing on to elderly relatives. It is the self isolation rules causing distribution in school, not Covid it’s self.

I am happy to vaccinate my children against illness that they may be ill from - but not from an illness that I know does not. I can not think of any good reasons for them to be vaccinated and there is a small chance that the vaccine could cause them damage. That is a risk that I am not willing to take for no gain.

However it should be a choice for parents to make if they think it is right for their child. A choice not something that is forced on people otherwise they can’t travel, go to events, made to feel guilty etc. A Choice.

Anyone who thinks that children do not get seriously ill with Omicron needs to take a look at the latest figures from the goverment data on hospitalisations.

889 children have been hospitalised with Covid in the last week in England. Up from 778 children the week before. You can compare this on the graph to previous figures.

There is also quite a lot of good data on the risk Long Covid in children - including in those who get Covid mildly initially - and increasingly solid data on Long Covid risks across the population.

twitter.com/Antonio_Caramia/status/1480626665311059971

www.statsjamie.co.uk/child-hospital-patients/

Another reason for vaccination is travel as several countries require require children to be double vaxxed.

[quote unim]Anyone who thinks that children do not get seriously ill with Omicron needs to take a look at the latest figures from the goverment data on hospitalisations.

889 children have been hospitalised with Covid in the last week in England. Up from 778 children the week before. You can compare this on the graph to previous figures.

There is also quite a lot of good data on the risk Long Covid in children - including in those who get Covid mildly initially - and increasingly solid data on Long Covid risks across the population.

twitter.com/Antonio_Caramia/status/1480626665311059971[/quote]
But is this admission solely for covid, or other admissions like for a broken leg and then they’ve tested for covid in the child? Where’s the break down of this data?

@WhenWillThisEverEnd

I 100% would not want to vaccinate my children (8 and 5). I have been x3 jabbed. They have both had Covid and it was so mild we would not have known had I not been testing them due to cases in their school. I don’t know of any children that have been ill. I appreciate that this is my experience not everyones.

The vaccine does not stop you getting and passing on Covid - so limited impact on passing on to elderly relatives. It is the self isolation rules causing distribution in school, not Covid it’s self.

I am happy to vaccinate my children against illness that they may be ill from - but not from an illness that I know does not. I can not think of any good reasons for them to be vaccinated and there is a small chance that the vaccine could cause them damage. That is a risk that I am not willing to take for no gain.

However it should be a choice for parents to make if they think it is right for their child. A choice not something that is forced on people otherwise they can’t travel, go to events, made to feel guilty etc. A Choice.

The problem is that people are being FORCED not to vaccinate their children at the moment.

Those of us who really want to can't.

I agree it should be a free choice. Where's the choice for those who want their children vaccinated.

Where's the outrage for all the clinically vulnerable children being forcibly denied that choice even though the experts advise in their case it is very much beneficial and could be life saving?

With such high infection rates, those children are being denied a critical protection and being forced to live with the risk of covid daily.

@Pluckyduck Yes, it would be great if this information was released in the UK. I wonder why it isn't.

The most relevant recent figures relate to NY and you can read a report here showing that:

• NY also seeing huge increases in hospitalisations in children
• COVID-19 is the primary cause in the majority
• attributed to under 5s being unvaccinated, and low vaccine coverage in adolescents.

Here is the full report, it is official and makes for very interesting reading: health.ny.gov/press/releases/2022/docs/pediatric_covid-19_hospitalization_report.pdf

@Nappyvalley15 I've just posted some recent figures from NY that go into more detail about what they're seeing there. The key take aways are:

• NY also seeing huge increases in hospitalisations in children
• COVID-19 is the primary cause in the majority
• attributed to under 5s being unvaccinated, and low vaccine coverage in adolescents.

Here is the full report, it is official and makes for very interesting reading: health.ny.gov/press/releases/2022/docs/pediatric_covid-19_hospitalization_report.pdf

The data from the UK on hospitalisation of 0-5 matches that seen in other countries. It is stark and worrying and many scientists are raising the alarm. The silence in the media and from government is really concerning.

Every other category they have said they weren't going to do it and then ended up doing them.... then they said it would only be one jab and now even 12-15s will be getting a second in due course ... I would put money on 5-11s getting a full course later in the year. As others have said, for travel reasons if nothing else*

*Though it's not yet been widely publicised in the mainstream media how high hospital admissions are in under 12s right now - higher than they've ever been in previous waves. That might change things too if there is media pressure.

[quote unim]@Pluckyduck Yes, it would be great if this information was released in the UK. I wonder why it isn't.

The most relevant recent figures relate to NY and you can read a report here showing that:

• NY also seeing huge increases in hospitalisations in children
• COVID-19 is the primary cause in the majority
• attributed to under 5s being unvaccinated, and low vaccine coverage in adolescents.

Here is the full report, it is official and makes for very interesting reading: health.ny.gov/press/releases/2022/docs/pediatric_covid-19_hospitalization_report.pdf[/quote]
Thank you, ok I’ve read it and it says ‘for or with covid’. I didn’t get that it is the primary cause, am I missing that? With such a huge increase in cases in the community , some of which are asymptomatic (1 in 3), wouldn’t there be an expectation that more children will test positive whilst in hospital for something else?
Are there actually huge numbers of children being admitted with covid alone, or are there simply children going in for other reasons and tests picking up an infection they may not even have known about? The trend of increased infection reflects the cases in the community which we are seeing in the Uk.

We need more details. Lots of children are admitted for other reasons and test positive in hospital. Also the definition of 'admission' needs to be clearer. Is it just overnight (perhaps due to revise as main diagnosis)? Or is it longer.

Also thresholds for medical intervention/admission may be different in NY so it is hard to compare their data with ours.

Perhaps the reason why the press are not focused on this is because it is not as scary as it sounds. We need more details to decide.

[quote BewareTheLibrarians]@s1h2o3na Did the JCVI publish any more of their workings for the the risks of the vaccine vs infection, PIMS and long covid?

All I’ve seen is flawed data relying on “limited studies which used total population rather than estimated infections as a denominator for risk” which is not going to give an accurate measure.

(Quote taken from the Twitter thread I’ve now linked to twice.)[/quote]
i have seen the link but Karam Bales is an ex member of the NEU executive and he has his own particular biases (some of which I have every sympathy for) and he could be said to be overly extreme in the opposite direction to those he criticises. He appears very anti the JCVI's findings but why do you think he is right but the JCVI are not? What is his particular expertise ? I do agree that if vaccines have been passed by the MHRA for 12-15's and 5-11's then people should be entitled to make their own decisions but if there are decisions to be made about offering a mass vaccination programme then in the UK we do have to go with what the JCVI are advising. If the option to vaccinate children was initiated 9 months ago in the UK or we were in a country where the vast majority of children had not yet been exposed to the virus (you could argue that this would have been the case for Oz or NZ if they'd been able to access enough vaccine early enough to roll out their programme to the whole population ) the JCVI may have acted differently but once we are in a situation where the majority of kids have been or will be shortly exposed to the virus then this changes the risk-benefit analysis.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if a child is admitted with RSV (for example) then having covid isn't going to improve their health outcomes and status.

The data seems to suggest it's mostly 'for' with a bit of 'with' from what I've seen from the US (it doesn't seem to be broken down in the UK data) but even if it were only 'with' - why are the hospitalisations so much higher than normal? It still puts pressure on the NHS and means kids might not get the care they need.

Where's the outrage for all the clinically vulnerable children being forcibly denied that choice even though the experts advise in their case it is very much beneficial and could be life saving?

The JVCI have recommended giving it to those children most vulnerable

Which is absolutely the right thing to do. I am debating what I will do with my 2 healthy children if it gets approved for them. If my kids were at higher risk I would get them vaccinated in a heart beat.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that if a child is admitted with RSV (for example) then having covid isn't going to improve their health outcomes and status.

The data seems to suggest it's mostly 'for' with a bit of 'with' from what I've seen from the US (it doesn't seem to be broken down in the UK data) but even if it were only 'with' - why are the hospitalisations so much higher than normal? It still puts pressure on the NHS and means kids might not get the care they need.

Do we have any data of previous years winter admissions for respiratory illnesses? It would be interesting to compare. What doesn’t help is many under 5’s having been locked down over last winter and not building up immunity, showing up in increased RSV rates.

Sorry I meant building up immunity to other respiratory illnesses, not covid.

@Ohsofedupwiththis

Where's the outrage for all the clinically vulnerable children being forcibly denied that choice even though the experts advise in their case it is very much beneficial and could be life saving?

The JVCI have recommended giving it to those children most vulnerable

Which is absolutely the right thing to do. I am debating what I will do with my 2 healthy children if it gets approved for them. If my kids were at higher risk I would get them vaccinated in a heart beat.

Yes, they've recommended it but the kids can't get vaccinated. It's not much help if it's entirely theoretical.

Nothing's been put in place to ensure those kids can actually be vaccinated during a massive wave where schools are absolutely rife with covid.

I think that's pretty outrageous.

There are threads on here with people asking if anyone's managed to get their CV / CEV child vaccinated and they've been told there isn't enough supply of the vaccine. Which is piss poor planning given they've been vaccinating kids for months in the US.