5-11 vaccination

[LoudSnoringDog]

Is this age group highly likely to get the vaccine? I can see online that vulnerable children in this age group will but it's not clear as far as I can see re healthy children?

Well #mnhq you have excelled yourself this time. My perfectly reasonable post was deleted.

Vaccines do not significantly reduce the risk of you catching omicrom, so if that's the only reason that a PP is going to get a child vaccinated then she is misunderstanding things. That is dangerous to her and her vulnerable family. Other precautions are required.

I am baffled as to why a sensible post is deleted when many others that are plain wrong are left to stand!

Vaccines do not significantly reduce the risk of you catching omicrom
You need to be careful with the word significant Ohsofedupwiththis. Its meaning in science is different to the general usage of the word. Statistical significance means a result is unlikely to have occurred by chance, not that it's large or noteworthy (though it may be). Therefore, in scientific terms, vaccines probably do significantly reduce the risk of catching omicron.

If we choose to vaccinate UK children, especially if the reason given is travel, before a large percentage of the world's elderly and vulnerable then I think it's a travesty. It horrified me that other countries have already decided to do this.

But then I thought the same about 12-17s and under 30s. I was iffy on the under 45s.

I get that it helps our country and our lives get back to normal and that's so appealing. But it doesn't make it right.

@Ohsofedupwiththis
Your post is misinformation.
The booster jabs in particular are effective against making people seriously ill and needing hospitalization if they contract Omicron. It's true that 2 doses only has little effect, but that's because of a combination of efficacy waning over time, and the new strains.

@Mybalconyiscracking, so is yours. Healthy children are still far more likely to be left with serious health problems after a Covid infection, than after taking the vaccine.

@Mybalconyiscracking

My understanding is that healthy children are at a minuscule risk of being damaged by COVID and a very slightly higher but still minuscule risk of being damaged by the vaccine. It is a basic premise of informed consent that only the welfare of the patient should be considered, you are not allowed to weigh that against the benefit to society, therefore ethically we shouldn’t be vaccinating healthy children..

I’m pretty sure it’s the other way around, children are at a very very tiny risk from the vaccine and a still very small, but significantly higher risk of harm from covid. I believe 25 children died of Covid in 2021, of which only 2 or 3 had no underlying conditions. I don’t think any deaths have occurred from the vaccine although a small number of children have needed hospital treatment.

That's what a vaccine's for.
We vaccinate the healthy to stop them getting sick. hmm

Not the covid vaccines. Their sole purpose has been to stop our health service collapsing. We never vaccinated pre schoolers or teenagers against flu until last year. That wasn't to prevent any of them developing illness, it was purely to 'protect the nhs'. If they were at risk of illness from flu would they not have been offered the vaccine pre covid?

Anyway there's already murmurings of stopping vaccinating healthy low risk adults so no I don't think the vaccines will be rolled out to very low risk healthy young children.

@Thievesoil

We shouldn’t be offering it to young people for reasons of travel. We should be offering it to them if they need it and the benefits outweigh the risk. How many young children haven’t had omicron yet? Can we discuss natural immunity please?

Well it may come down to a parental choice of whether you want to take your child or holiday abroad....if you are happy to holiday in the UK until they are 18 then thats fine....mostcpeople I know are a bit hesitant but said the travel thing will be the decider

[quote PAFMO]@Ohsofedupwiththis
Your post is misinformation.
The booster jabs in particular are effective against making people seriously ill and needing hospitalization if they contract Omicron. It's true that 2 doses only has little effect, but that's because of a combination of efficacy waning over time, and the new strains.

@Mybalconyiscracking, so is yours. Healthy children are still far more likely to be left with serious health problems after a Covid infection, than after taking the vaccine.[/quote]
PAFMO if I had said what you say I said, then yes it would be misinformation.

Bit since that's not what I said and I understand exactly the benefit of vaccines and boosters then its a mute point.........

I have an 11 year old and would be interested in him having access to the vaccine, partly because I know of children who have been quite unwell with covid, and I do worry about long term harm from it. I know the risks are small, but I had mild covid before vaccine and I was unwell for many weeks, I think it can affect you in a similar way to glandular fever or ME, you aren’t in serious peril but still unwell for a really long time.

I also like to travel, I know it’s selfish but I don’t like the idea of being restricted in where we can go because of vaccine requirements. I’ve had additional vaccines to travel in times before covid, I get that during an epidemic things are different. If it was a choice between vaccinating kids here or older populations elsewhere I’d be pro supporting vulnerable populations, but I’m not sure that’s actually the choice.

Not sure that they will to be honest. Chris Whitty has said it's not as clear cut as for older children and adults with this age group and that only vulnerable children in this group should get vaccinated. It's largely because the vaccines do not reduce transmission as much or for as long as they had hoped and in this age group the main benefit for vaccine is to reduce children passing it on to the vulnerable as they are such low risk for severe disease themselves. And as for reducing the impact of schooling, as we have all seen, the vaccinated get Covid and have to isolate. The same would apply to children.

Maybe once they further develop the vaccines to improve their effectiveness against transmission, then there would be a stronger case for this age group to be vaccinated.

My 5 and 9 yr old will not be having it if it gets the go ahead.

@s1h2o3na

I read an interesting article this am ,a published letter recording vaccinating children ,will try and copy/paste: "The letter has been signed by 12 scientists, medical experts and 21 peers and MPs including the former president of the Royal College of General Practitioners, a former government vaccine advisor, paediatricians and experts in infectious disease as well as 21 politicians and peers.

It argues the risk benefit calculations made by the JCVI and the Chief Medical Officer were based on "less than complete data on both the harms and the benefits of vaccinating children compared to the evidence now available."

It cites new evidence showing the risk of myocarditis in young men and boys is up to 14 times higher after vaccination than after infection.

And it states that given the high level of naturally acquired immunity from infection as well as the replacement of the Delta variant by milder Omicron, "it's crucial that, if we are to proceed with the mass double vaccination of healthy children, we are absolutely certain this policy will do more good than harm."

It states that the justification for vaccinating children was to provide "marginal benefits" of reducing time spent out of school due to covid infection but it cites new data showing that vaccines are no longer effective at preventing infection with Omicron.

It states: "Furthermore, the negligible risks of Covid infection to children have become even more nugatory if, as it appears, Omicron is associated with less severe disease, whereas the benefits of natural infection (rather than vaccination) in terms of longer lasting immunity are becoming more clear.".

And it concludes: "We urge the JCVI to review this new evidence and provide updated advice to the Government with regards to the mass vaccination of healthy 12-15 year olds."

Signatory Professor Brent Taylor, Professor Emeritus of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, and former JCVI member said: "The JCVI made a very sensible and laudable recommendation when it advised the Government last September against the mass vaccination of healthy children against Covid-19. The Committee was rightly concerned about the unknown potential harms of the new vaccines, in particular myocarditis.

"Since the unfathomable decision of the CMO to go against that advice, second doses are now being offered to children despite further evidence of the potential harm of myocarditis, most worryingly the frequency, especially following the second dose. The latest CDC data reports elevated rates of post-vaccination myocarditis for boys aged 12-15, 2.5-24 times higher in the seven days after first dose and 24-228 times higher in the seven days after second dose.

"So, whilst the absolute risks are still low they cannot be described as trivial and the absolute risk from Covid-19 to healthy children is negligible. Additionally, the vaccines stop neither infection nor transmission and many children will have broad and robust natural immunity following infection. I'm afraid the mass vaccination of healthy children is not based on sound evidence. It is time for the JCVI, the CMO and the Government to reassess all the evidence now available and alter its recommendation accordingly."

Miriam Cates Conservative MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge, who also signed the letter, said: "Despite the fact that children are at almost no risk of harm from COVID, the harms of lockdowns and restrictions - such as lost education, missed opportunities and online harms - have placed an enormous burden on our young.

"When the decision was made to vaccinate healthy 12-15 year olds last September despite the JCVI's concerns about unknown harms, I was concerned that, yet again, we were not putting the best interests of our children first.

"With Omicron having become the dominant variant and much more data now available the situation has now changed. The JCVI should now have the opportunity to review the emerging evidence on the benefits and risks of child vaccinations and provide updated recommendations to Government.

"If we are to continue vaccinating our children against COVID we must be sure it is in their short and long-term interests and that we are doing more good than harm."

Interesting.

@HappyGreen

That's what a vaccine's for. We vaccinate the healthy to stop them getting sick. hmm

Not the covid vaccines. Their sole purpose has been to stop our health service collapsing. We never vaccinated pre schoolers or teenagers against flu until last year. That wasn't to prevent any of them developing illness, it was purely to 'protect the nhs'. If they were at risk of illness from flu would they not have been offered the vaccine pre covid?

Anyway there's already murmurings of stopping vaccinating healthy low risk adults so no I don't think the vaccines will be rolled out to very low risk healthy young children.

We have been extending the number of children being vaccinated for flu for many years, my youngest has had flu vaccine for last 4/5 years.

Covid vaccine prevents people becoming seriously ill. That’s a direct benefit to the individual.

My kids are at a vanishingly small risk from polio, but I still think it’s good that they get the vaccine for it. It’s never been a controversial vaccine in the uk, even though the risk is so small the consequences of an outbreak would be awful.

Ireland's rolled it out already - my 11 year old just had his, and my 8 year old will have his next week. I've looked at it all, and decided that on balance this is risk I prefer taking.

I would think that like flu vaccines they'll roll it out eventually (perhaps more likely if they can figure out a nasal vaccine as they have for the flu, rather than injection)

Or they can just make it available not on the nhs, like other vaccinations required for travel purposes.
I have te point of view of 3 different countries, and it’s only the U.K. which has such a venomous debate about kids. In the other countries, they hated the AZ vaccine, but nobody blinked when the vaccine was offered to teens, quite the opposite, and nobody debated about myocarditis…

@cherin

Or they can just make it available not on the nhs, like other vaccinations required for travel purposes. I have te point of view of 3 different countries, and it’s only the U.K. which has such a venomous debate about kids. In the other countries, they hated the AZ vaccine, but nobody blinked when the vaccine was offered to teens, quite the opposite, and nobody debated about myocarditis…

What other countries are these? It's right to report any reactions after a new drug to develop a sound clinical base if side effects, risks etc. The problem here is not that these issues where addressed by the appropriate people but the media storm about it!

Italy, Croatia and USA

@cherin

Or they can just make it available not on the nhs, like other vaccinations required for travel purposes. I have te point of view of 3 different countries, and it’s only the U.K. which has such a venomous debate about kids. In the other countries, they hated the AZ vaccine, but nobody blinked when the vaccine was offered to teens, quite the opposite, and nobody debated about myocarditis…

We have a dreadful lack of scientific education in the UK.

The current populists and right wing extremists in Government are just making things worse, because they amplify the low information views.of a great many of the UK population.

I doubt vaccination take up for younger children will be high in Croatia though, from reading some of the local news and views.

@HappyGreen

That's what a vaccine's for. We vaccinate the healthy to stop them getting sick. hmm

Not the covid vaccines. Their sole purpose has been to stop our health service collapsing. We never vaccinated pre schoolers or teenagers against flu until last year. That wasn't to prevent any of them developing illness, it was purely to 'protect the nhs'. If they were at risk of illness from flu would they not have been offered the vaccine pre covid?

Anyway there's already murmurings of stopping vaccinating healthy low risk adults so no I don't think the vaccines will be rolled out to very low risk healthy young children.

If we do stop vaccination for healthy adults then I can’t see it for young children either.

Not sure where that leaves travel but the JCVI doesn’t include travel in decision making anyway - I assume haven’t checked

Very difficult to tell what will happen now, as there are more and more paediatric professionals speaking out and urging the JCVI to urgently review the current child vaccination programme based on live data and experience of the last three months (see open letter to JCVI, Prof Brent Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Hospital, Institute of Child Health). As a parent myself, I am keeping my eyes peeled on the news right now, as I prefer to listen to those treating children as a day job and find it very unnerving that the medical community have now started to become more and more vocal about their concerns.
I would certainly not vaccinate my otherwise children right now, especially if they have already had delta.... omicron is not a variant we need to worry about.

@perfectSmiles3

Very difficult to tell what will happen now, as there are more and more paediatric professionals speaking out and urging the JCVI to urgently review the current child vaccination programme based on live data and experience of the last three months (see open letter to JCVI, Prof Brent Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Community Child Health, UCL Great Ormond Street Hospital, Institute of Child Health). As a parent myself, I am keeping my eyes peeled on the news right now, as I prefer to listen to those treating children as a day job and find it very unnerving that the medical community have now started to become more and more vocal about their concerns. I would certainly not vaccinate my otherwise children right now, especially if they have already had delta.... omicron is not a variant we need to worry about.

You have it backwards

Omicron is actually more dangerous for children vs Delta.

There are large numbers of children currently being hospitalised due to Omicron. We also know with certainty that there is a risk, even with mild Covid, of long-term symptoms and neurological damage. Not something I'm keen to risk for my children.

While not every parent will want their children to have the vaccine, I wish that it was at least an option for us - as it is in Canada, the US, Italy, Spain, New Zealand, Australia... bit strange that all of the scientific advice in those countries points towards there being an advantage to children in vaccinating them, while the UK alone disagrees...

@unim

There are large numbers of children currently being hospitalised due to Omicron. We also know with certainty that there is a risk, even with mild Covid, of long-term symptoms and neurological damage. Not something I'm keen to risk for my children.

While not every parent will want their children to have the vaccine, I wish that it was at least an option for us - as it is in Canada, the US, Italy, Spain, New Zealand, Australia... bit strange that all of the scientific advice in those countries points towards there being an advantage to children in vaccinating them, while the UK alone disagrees...

Thats the main sticking point.

I find the hypocrisy astounding in the land of "personal responsibility".

Funny how that works.