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4th Jab: when will enough be enough?

112 replies

Idontgiveaf324 · 23/12/2021 09:28

I just read in the paper that scientists are considering introducing a second booster, ie the fourth vaccine in less than a year. Obviously everyone is rushing to get their third booster at the moment but I was interested in finding out whether any of you have a ‘tipping point’ beyond which you will say no more? Or are people happy to just continue being vaccinated whenever the story changes as to what is actually needed to combat the virus? FYI I have had my first two jabs (which I was assured would protect me until I am now told that I am soon to be classed as ‘unvaccinated’). I wouldn’t describe myself as anti-vax but I feel there is a limit. So what is your tipping point? 4 jabs? 5? 6? Or unlimited?

OP posts:
Turquoisesea · 23/12/2021 13:24

I think it’s crazy, so a healthy 18 year old could be potentially be offered a 4th vaccine in a few months time for a strain which is mild when lots of vulnerable people worldwide haven’t even had their first dose. It’s so wrong.

rainrainraincamedowndowndown · 23/12/2021 13:25

Yet we now have a stamped for boosters for a mild strain - taking the vaccines away from people that actually really do need them

It's been talked about in many places including MN. We are not taking vaccines away from people actually really do need them. Issue is more complicated than that, in those low vaccinated countries, it's not as simple as if we give them vaccine, they all take them. Some of those low vaccinated countries have enough vaccines but because of hesitancy, logistics, and other complicated issues, some even end up discarding them.

motheroflions · 23/12/2021 13:39

@rainrainraincamedowndowndown

Yet we now have a stamped for boosters for a mild strain - taking the vaccines away from people that actually really do need them

It's been talked about in many places including MN. We are not taking vaccines away from people actually really do need them. Issue is more complicated than that, in those low vaccinated countries, it's not as simple as if we give them vaccine, they all take them. Some of those low vaccinated countries have enough vaccines but because of hesitancy, logistics, and other complicated issues, some even end up discarding them.

There is a poster on this thread ( or the other one) who says her primary jab is being delayed because people who are not at risk are taking the booster.

Only half of WHO member states have been able to reach the target of vaccinating 40% of their populations. Thats not hesitancy or logistics. And no - its not because they are throwing them away either Hmm

bellamountain · 23/12/2021 13:41

I'm having terrible side effects from the third jab including skin tingling. I just hope that the virus is now becoming less harmful as time goes on and the need for vaccines for everyone isn't needed no more.

DoubleDeckerSwimmer · 23/12/2021 13:44

@Idontgiveaf324

I just read in the paper that scientists are considering introducing a second booster, ie the fourth vaccine in less than a year. Obviously everyone is rushing to get their third booster at the moment but I was interested in finding out whether any of you have a ‘tipping point’ beyond which you will say no more? Or are people happy to just continue being vaccinated whenever the story changes as to what is actually needed to combat the virus? FYI I have had my first two jabs (which I was assured would protect me until I am now told that I am soon to be classed as ‘unvaccinated’). I wouldn’t describe myself as anti-vax but I feel there is a limit. So what is your tipping point? 4 jabs? 5? 6? Or unlimited?
What science do you propose using to choose or define your limit? I don't see how an arbitrary number has any meaning.
waterlego · 23/12/2021 13:44

Agree that governments in Europe, US, Canada, Aus and NZ need to be working together to share vaccines with those nations where the first vaccine rate is still very low, otherwise we’ll never get out of this cycle.

I felt shite after my booster (as bad as I had felt when I had Covid itself, pre-vaccines) and had to take a day and a half off work, for which I don’t get paid. (Freelance + zero hours contracts so no sick pay, and no holiday pay). If the boosters are going to be frequent, I can’t afford to take a day off every time I have one.

I’m another one who’s never been asked to have a flu jab and never been offered one. Never been judged or chastised for not having it. Hoping we’ll reach that sort of situation with the Covid boosters eventually.

UnsuitableHat · 23/12/2021 13:47

I’d have one a year if that became the norm

Bagadverts · 23/12/2021 13:52

If I thought that not getting my second jab and booster would mean that someone in a less supplied country got it then I might not have. I have written to my MP about more being done, of course morally but also in our own best interests of less variants arising. I have donated to UNICEF and hope that might do something to provide more jabs worldwide than me not getting the booster.

cherryonthecakes · 23/12/2021 13:56

It sounds like 3 will be the expected number of vaccinations to travel next summer. If other countries go for more then I can imagine that many people will get boosted - especially if their family lives in that country

MatildaIThink · 23/12/2021 14:05

@Idontgiveaf324

Fair enough but I have never had a flu jab as it’s always been a free choice or something for those who work in healthcare settings or those who are vulnerable. I’m happy for that to be the case with boosters - available for those who need them. But not something that the whole population is required to have. For one we don’t have the resources for that.
For one we don’t have the resources for that. Of course we have the resources for that, on an ongoing basis it would not cost much at all in the grand scheme of things, especially when you take into account potential economic impacts of lost work time, lost education etc.

If there is an issue with spread there are also justifications to place restrictions on those who will not take the vaccines.

You might not agree with vaccination, but you will need a better argument than lack of resources.

WinterDeWinter · 23/12/2021 14:08

“whenever the story changes as to what is actually needed to combat the virus?”
You mean.. whenever the virus mutates?
The fact that you’re framing it as a “story” says that you are already a conspiracist.

RoyalFamilyFan · 23/12/2021 14:11

I thought the fourth booster was being developed for vulnerable people only?
TBH the current booster was only supposed to be for vulnerable people until the new variant came along. If there is no new variant to worry about, only those immuno suppressed will need a fourth booster.

cherryonthecakes · 23/12/2021 14:52

The front pages suggest that they are considering the 4th jab for everyone. I know that Chris Whitty said that the vulnerable would get a 4th.

Idontgiveaf324 · 23/12/2021 15:01

Of course we have the resources for that, on an ongoing basis it would not cost much at all in the grand scheme of things, especially when you take into account potential economic impacts of lost work time, lost education etc.

If there is an issue with spread there are also justifications to place restrictions on those who will not take the vaccines.

You might not agree with vaccination, but you will need a better argument than lack of resources.

Really? Because at the moment things are dire for non-emergency medical treatment and having drives to vaccinate the whole population on a regular basis will take a huge amount of resources.
Also, despite a huge vaccine drive and many people having had THREE jabs we’re looking at a lockdown very soon and already have one in Wales and Scotland. We have more cases than ever before and businesses are having to foot the bill for time off work for the many many people infected. We’re looking at another furlough scheme AND non-essential appointments are being cancelled left right and centre to vaccinate people. So yeah, not too convinced that we do have the resources or that mass vaccination makes a huge difference to numbers off sick.

OP posts:
OurChristmasMiracle · 23/12/2021 15:16

I will continue to risk assess the vaccines and potential side effects against the chances of being seriously Unwell from Covid as well as side effects yet unknown.

Just the same way I risk assess my epilepsy medication against not taking it and my painkillers against my pain. I only take my pain relief if it’s absolutely necessary.

MatildaIThink · 23/12/2021 15:16

Really? Because at the moment things are dire for non-emergency medical treatment and having drives to vaccinate the whole population on a regular basis will take a huge amount of resources.
It would probably be less than 1% of the NHS budget, it would cost roughly 3-5 times what we spend on the annual flu vaccination drive, depending on who it was extended to, if it was annual, twice yearly etc. The annual flu vaccination is a net positive impact on the country of £90-270 million per year.

The NHS annual budget is £176.5 billion, if you scaled the flu vaccination program up to cover annual Covid boosters it would cost less than half a billion annually. Doing things in a rush, without planning, and without the ability to negotiate long term contracts is always more expensive than a sustained, ongoing process.

Also, despite a huge vaccine drive and many people having had THREE jabs we’re looking at a lockdown very soon and already have one in Wales and Scotland.
We are, however looking at the data it also appears that if we had 70%+ boosted we would not be, also, the current vaccines are still based on the Wuhan strain, as per the flu vaccines any annual booster would be updated to contain multiple versions of variants which would both be potentially in circulation, and closer to any new or emerging variants. That would also significantly improve immune response.

We have more cases than ever before and businesses are having to foot the bill for time off work for the many many people infected.
Yes we have more cases than ever, that is very unfortunate. It is also not good that anyone (businesses or the taxpayer) are having to foot the bill for people off work due to Covid, which is why long term prevention, is better than cure.

We’re looking at another furlough scheme AND non-essential appointments are being cancelled left right and centre to vaccinate people.
No "we" are not, there will not be another CJRS or SEISS over Omicron because the Conservatives would tear themselves apart first, rather than implement it. We do need to vaccinate people, we also need to update vaccines and keep vaccinating people, but when that is part of a long term scheme you employ people to do it, rather than needing to pull them off of other duties at short notice.

So yeah, not too convinced that we do have the resources or that mass vaccination makes a huge difference to numbers off sick.
Mass vaccination works, even if imperfectly, If we keep updating vaccines and keep administering them then that will work reasonably well, although not perfectly. If that is going to be sustained over time then the answer is to recruit specific teams to do it, that does have a cost, but a significantly lower cost than the alternative. Covid has cost the government and economy around £500 billion, probably £750 billion or more by the end of next year. The cost of Brexit is around £42 billion per year and counting, if we need to spend half a billion on an ongoing vaccination program we can find the money, in terms of the annual budget, total borrowing, or potential tax revenues, it is a rounding error.

Silverswirl · 23/12/2021 15:52

@nordica

I generally trust medical advice.

Would you say "enough is enough" about any other medication or preventative health care measure? "Took pain killers for period pain for the past 6 months so enough is enough, this month I'll just suffer." or "Seen the dentist for 40 years so enough is enough, not going to have another checkup for the rest of my life now." If not, then why is this different?

It’s different because this is something new and not out of the trial stage. You can’t possibly compare going for a check up at the dentist or taking paracetamol. Ok fact your comparisons give away your complete ignorance to what has been injected into you. I’ve had the jabs but in no way are they similar or the same risk as going for a check up at the dentist ffs. Have they rigorously tested mixing the vaccines or giving 3 / 4 within a year? Or are they just testing it on the general population?
Siameasy · 23/12/2021 16:03

I will have jabs but I’m not doing any asymptomatic testing

NannaMcPhoo · 23/12/2021 16:32

Two and done.

Having a booster to protect people who are already vaccinated? No thanks

NannaMcPhoo · 23/12/2021 16:35

The front pages suggest that they are considering the 4th jab for everyone. I know that Chris Whitty said that the vulnerable would get a 4th

I thought they said that about the 3rd.

Mistyplanet · 23/12/2021 16:40

None and im happily not having any jabs. Part of the reason I dont have any covid jabs is covid is unlikely to be severe for me- the same as flu. You can still transmit it with the vaccine anyway. Now we have Omricon which is a mild version of covid I hope to become infected and develop natural immunity. Why would I inject myself with something which I know nothing about and do it multiple times which is probably toxic to my body.

FFSFFSFFS · 23/12/2021 16:41

Hey OP - bet Chris whitty would love it if you’d drop him a line as for sure he won’t have thought about these things.

Dollface20 · 23/12/2021 16:43

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ as we have concerns about its genuineness.

ToykotoLosAngeles · 23/12/2021 16:51

They never pushed this hard for the flu Jab that knowing the flu kills thousands each year.

My asthmatic partner gets at least 3 letters and a phone call every year about the flu jab.

Nobody's really (from what I can see skim reading) mentioned that not all jabs are equal. I had 2 AstraZeneca jabs and studies came out today saying you need 3 doses of AZ against Omicron to equal the protection that 2 doses gives you against Delta.

Lifeisnteasy · 23/12/2021 17:04

@FFSFFSFFS

Hey OP - bet Chris whitty would love it if you’d drop him a line as for sure he won’t have thought about these things.
It isn’t Chris Witty’s job to take the economy, other services or the public desire into account. He purely advises on medical issues, so he will naturally advise whatever keeps the virus suppressed regardless of the consequences.