Welsh government overreaching now fines for working

[justasking111]

Well this has caused dismay you must try to work from home your employer must enable this from Monday, your vehicle stopped £60 fine, employer 1k fine.

You'll be fined if you live in Wales but work in England

So if hospitals become over whelmed you will quite happy not have medical assistance for any reason. RTC, heart attack, fall etc.

Looking at the way omicron is going in countries that have a lot of it, that's unlikely to happen--or at least, not much more than during the average winter when the poor old NHS never seems to cope very well anyway.

But in any case, the ridiculous measures being discussed here are going to make bugger all difference either way.

@kokeshi123

So what measures would you support?

My MD would be happy for us all to work from home if we wanted but for staff.morale alone when the cleaners, receptionists and the workmen all having to be at work isnt that a but shit too?

@hamstersarse - it's not trying to stop people earning a living though is it? It's to reduce the spread. So if you can wfh, you should.

@IcedPurple

*If your role can not be done from.home then the employer will need to justify why. Checkout worker, very clear cant be done at home. Employer gives employee letter to show. Distribution lorry driver cant be done from home employer gives employee letter. Admin role which previously was done via work from home can likely be done from home again so employee should facilitate this. Or be able to explain why this isnt feasible. Employee unable to work from home due to health, or resource issue should discuss with employer so this can be evidenced in HR and then they also will have a letter to carry.*

But where legal sanctions are involved, there has to be a detailed, legal definition of all this. What if the employer says that employees' productivity had been poor WFH? Or that everyone needs to be present for a sensitive face-to-face meeting that day? Or if your laptop has suddenly stopped working and you need to go to the office?

There are so many variables. You can't just fine people because in your opinion, they 'could' WFH. And rushing this through less than a week before Christmas, when many workplaces have already shut, just adds to the daftness.

This is a good point, I'll be interested to see the outcome of any legal challenges to fines.

[quote Covidworries]@kokeshi123

So what measures would you support?[/quote]
Well personally I'd love to see a massive investment in social care to free up half the beds in my local hospital. In the meantime whatever interim measures help with this. There's no point locking us up for a care crisis

It is utterly disgusting that someone supposedly left wing would bring in legislation penalising workers rather than employers in this situation. I understand if people are in favour of wfh laws, that's reasonable, but blaming the party who usually has least power in the transaction is grotesque.

I generally support the welsh government but this is totally unenforceable.

I suspect it’s to scare companies into enabling wfh rather than any serious intention to fine employees

The rule can easily be people must work from home if they can. The Welsh Government can fine people who, in their view, clear can work from home but aren't.

But 'their view' is incredibly limited. What do they know about how a business works? Employee performance? Yet they now have the power to throw around fines based on this totally incomplete understanding.

I'm actually dumbstruck that they think they have the authority to do this. It is too clueless for words.

Well our council sold their care homes then put everyone into private ones at ferociously low rates thus pushing up the price of those who can pay. Same with nursery places who struggle to get the discount rates. This reduces cash flow adds to admin costs.

We have 3k vacancies in the Welsh NHS which add to the care sector woes. Bed blocking is rife

@TheKeatingFive

The rule can easily be people must work from home if they can. The Welsh Government can fine people who, in their view, clear can work from home but aren't.

But 'their view' is incredibly limited. What do they know about how a business works? Employee performance? Yet they now have the power to throw around fines based on this totally incomplete understanding.

I'm actually dumbstruck that they think they have the authority to do this. It is too clueless for words.

This is why I'm really interested to see what happens with any legal challenges. Widely defined legislation can be a bugger to make stand up.

@Covidworries. I come from a place that I think all 4 govts are doing their best and are trying to balance health decisions against the economic ramifications. No one in any government doesn't care or doesn't want to make the right decision. I'm not critical of MD. But these laws they bring in gave to have some guidance and actually be enforceable. You can't have individual police officers deciding whether a company is viable with staff WFH. How on earth are they to know?
And your idea that this law us to get employees to put pressure on employers is totally unreasonable. Are staff, worried about their jobs, really going yo agitating mgt. Well off employees with clout might be able to, but the poorer paid that are easier to replace won't.
I know MD is doing this for the right reasons but it just seems ill-thought out and poorly instituted.

There's never any acknowledgement in Wales that so many of us live on the borders. I'm Welsh, going back generations, but I'm sick of this arbitrary separation, when I have more in common with the county 5 or so miles away than south Wales.

Working from home would suit me fine, as the kids in Wales are going back later than the kids in England and I'm struggling for childcare, but not really sure the parents of the kids I teach would be massively happy.

I really don’t know what to do with this. Went self employed covid-caused redundancy. Rent a small office and have one P/T employee.

I can’t work from home because I use two screens and a pc (couldn’t do my work on a laptop). My employee uses a laptop and is always welcome to work from home but finds it has an impact on their mental health. They are young, this is their first job and there is constant training and learning - it’s a creative role that requires a lot of collaboration. We could do it remotely but productivity would go down to about 40%, they would struggle without the mentorship and I’d make a loss.

I have been thoroughly frustrated living on the wales/England border, with the ridiculous rules - 5 miles, border line restrictions and the non-essential aisles. They make compliance impossible.

The rule can easily be people must work from home if they can. The Welsh Government can fine people who, in their view, clear can work from home but aren't. If people disagree with a decision, they can take it to court and see if a judge thinks they could have worked from home.

But unless there is an actual definition of what are and are not legally acceptable reasons to go to work, how can anyone, be they the police, the courts or the individual, decide if the person 'could' have worked from home?

Yes, laws are open to interpretation, but there still have to be clear parameters. You simply can't fine people because 'in your view', they 'could' have worked from home.

Obviously this silly 'law' doesn't bother you, but generally speaking, would you be happy to be fined because of the subjective 'views' of the individual police officer who pulled you up?

And the police round here can't even stop kids terrorising the locals, so good luck doing anything else.

Shocking and dystopian, quite frankly, and I'm triple vaxxed and recognise we need to keep our health system functioning. This is NOT the way to go. Fining employees for going to work when they've probably been told to or might have other reasons to! Totally unenforceable but sets a horrible authoritarian precedent.

I can't believe that the WG could top the batshittery of the closing off of non essential aisles in supermarkets, but this level of madness is something else again!!
Drakeford is making Wales a laughing stock!

I assume he's trying to protect workers whose employers insist that they go in when when there is no need to physically be there

but he's not, because he's saying that the employee will be fined too.

And as for the nonsense about crossing the border - I do think the UK government needs to step in here and say we are one country and we have free movement within the UK. I know we had tiers in England this time last year, but you could cross tier boundaries for work and essential shopping.

Internet is so slow in many areas of Wales no fibre optic cable. If you're on the computer, the kids are him and want to stream Disney then your laptop grinds to a halt and the streaming judders too.

My friend quit her job employer insisted that she worked from home government job. Schools said that she wasn't a key worker so three small children and WFH didn't work. She was supposed to be three days a week which became every night. Speaking to clients problematic . Her new boss was unsympathetic and hounded her. Then got cancer so was on sick leave dumping her work too.

If you haven't got the broadband you really are stuck

I suppose this is going to make the wait for driving licences etc even longer, too.

@IcedPurple

The rule can easily be people must work from home if they can. The Welsh Government can fine people who, in their view, clear can work from home but aren't. If people disagree with a decision, they can take it to court and see if a judge thinks they could have worked from home.

But unless there is an actual definition of what are and are not legally acceptable reasons to go to work, how can anyone, be they the police, the courts or the individual, decide if the person 'could' have worked from home?

Yes, laws are open to interpretation, but there still have to be clear parameters. You simply can't fine people because 'in your view', they 'could' have worked from home.

Obviously this silly 'law' doesn't bother you, but generally speaking, would you be happy to be fined because of the subjective 'views' of the individual police officer who pulled you up?

Exactly. This sort of legislation should worry all of us, whatever we think the merits of wfh rules are (and fwiw I think that's a legitimate policy in itself). It cannot possibly be a good idea for a police officer who may have no understanding at all of the job concerned to be making these kind of calls, and fining the employee instead is just a corporate sop.

They have lost their minds! I thought vaccine passports were to keep things open?
Thank goodness England don’t seem to be following the insanity

I gather that Welsh Government themselves are telling their employees that they are allowed to attend an office for well-being reasons. I mention this to help anyone who's trying to work out whether or not this applies to them.

@Covidworries

Its from monday. So gives conoanies time to arrange. Its to ensure all those who can work from home do. If you cant tou will be given a letter to show if stopped. Not disimular to the other lockdowns where key workers needed a letter. I really doubt anyonenwill be able to go shopping at chester then either. Lots of places are going to be closed soon. No one wants lockdown including the governments. But of they are locking down it is for a reason and needed

Erm, you do know that you were allowed to go to your place of work in all previous lockdowns if you were unable to work from home and it hadn't been closed down? It wasn't just keyworkers!