Should Mumsnet be removing anti vax thread/info/supporters?

[wishingitwasspring]

Not sure what the legal stance is.

@Farrowblue

That’s interesting, I have found it incredibly easy and terribly informative to read through trails and copious amounts of data, making an informed decision about ones life should be a priority, relying upon as you said ‘ regulatory bodies’ to inform you is not a wise idea, I would be intrigued to read the data for this statement ‘ the fact that 99.99% of scientists & clinicians’

@Farrowblue

With all due respect, unless you have a PhD in a relevant field and are currently working as a research scientist, you do not have the capacity to critically assess trial data.

Beyond anything else, you don't even have access to the raw trial data?

By 99.9% of scientists & clinicians- I meant the majority of all experts recommend vaccination for the general population. You can always find crackpots like Yeadon and Malone who have anti-vaccine agenda and use their dr titles to propogate this, but such is life for any type of recommendation.

You wouldn't decide you can fly a plane better than a pilot with a couple of months of websearching, nor can you suddenly become better qualified than actual scientists in the same time period.

I gave examples of regulatory bodies in my post - for example the MHRA.

@leafyygreens

This is exactly what baffles me too. How can people possibly think they know better, unless as you say, they are qualified to actually know?!

[quote wishingitwasspring]@leafyygreens

This is exactly what baffles me too. How can people possibly think they know better, unless as you say, they are qualified to actually know?! [/quote]
dunning kruger effect?

It's just ironic because you get accused of being ignorant for going along with recommendations, when in reality it's just you understand enough about the field to trust the process.

I'm a scientist but I know I don't know enough about epidemiology or vaccines or viruses to evaluate this myself, and certainly would appreciate that if I disagree with their findings it's probably my misunderstanding rather than all those experts being wrong!

@leafyygreens no of course not but if the data is available, you could check out the pilot, check his credentials and years of experience and then decide if you want to travel with him as your pilot.

[quote DarknessAndLight]@leafyygreens no of course not but if the data is available, you could check out the pilot, check his credentials and years of experience and then decide if you want to travel with him as your pilot.[/quote]
But if you decide you disagree with 99.99% of pilots (with varying credentials and years of experience) in the world?

Wouldn't that make you stop and think maybe it's your misunderstanding rather than all the pilots are wrong about how to fly a plane?

By this statement you have proven to have plucked this statistic out of your head ‘By 99.9% of scientists & clinicians- I meant the majority of all experts recommend vaccination for the general population’

I would hope that you don’t blindly agree with every other aspect of your life

@leafyygreens it could, but it would still be your choice if you wanted to ever fly.

@Farrowblue

By this statement you have proven to have plucked this statistic out of your head ‘By 99.9% of scientists & clinicians- I meant the majority of all experts recommend vaccination for the general population’

I would hope that you don’t blindly agree with every other aspect of your life

See my posts - not sure how I can be accused of "blindly agreeing"

The Dunning-Kruger effect is real here.

[quote DarknessAndLight]@leafyygreens it could, but it would still be your choice if you wanted to ever fly.[/quote]
Yes that I totally agree with - except in my metaphor it was choosing to fly the plane yourself, but it all got a bit confused

It should remain a choice & I disagree with any kind of vaccine mandates.

@leafyygreens by using that comparison, it would mean somebody would decide to make their own vaccine which would be ridiculous

Did you or did you no just pluck a statistic out of your head?

@Farrowblue

Did you or did you no just pluck a statistic out of your head?

I don't know why but this really made me laugh.

All credible clinicians & scientists recommend vaccination for the general population. Obviously I have not compiled an exhaustive list so cannot give the the perecentage- but there is a tiny minority of people like Mike Yeadon, Sam White, HART etc who push an anti-vaccine agenda, using their Dr titles to add credibility.

Therefore in good faith I cannot say "100%" of experts, so I colloquially said "99.99%" of experts.

Still interested in your process of critically evaluating trial data given you have no expertise and don't actually have the option to access it that!

I posted earlier that I'm a scientist - a biologist - but don't consider myself expert enough in this area to critically evaluate it, and know enough about the process to trust others to do it for me. You cannot be an expert in everything.

Is that 99.9% figure real though? People pluck numbers from the sky on these threads. Yesterday someone claimed to be an icu nurse and said 90% of their patients are unvaccinated and the other 10% only double vaccinated.

I haven’t seen a cautious vaxxer making up statistics like this. Are made up facts ok when you’re on ‘the good side’?

@wishingitwasspring to quote you "After almost 40 years working in the nhs as a health professional I have enough experience and knowledge of medicine, research, risks, and research"
What? one of the NHS health professionals who sent the elderly out of hospitals into care homes with out testing them for Covid and in some cases held them in a covid riddled hospital until they found a care home that would take them without a test rather than just test them?
You're saying friends and family that questioned it, shouldn't have done as they are not experts? Certainly that was the reaction from some of your fellow "professionals"

There are "pro vaxxers" who spread mis information too, such as two vaccines give you no protection from Omicron.

@Isthatthebestyoucando

Is that 99.9% figure real though? People pluck numbers from the sky on these threads. Yesterday someone claimed to be an icu nurse and said 90% of their patients are unvaccinated and the other 10% only double vaccinated. I haven’t seen a cautious vaxxer making up statistics like this. Are made up facts ok when you’re on ‘the good side’?

See my post above

Yeah we posted at the same time.

I fear this thread is going to get very off track so to answer the OP

Questions, opinions, thoughts etc, obviously fine.

Misinformation about vaccines/coronavirus/drugs like ivermectin (i.e., statements not backed up by robust evidence), normally designed to scare people off being vaccinated or make them think it's not necessary, not fine.

Noone can make an informed decision on being vaccinated if they are being coerced by misinformation, that's the issue with it. It causes preventable death & disability.

Noone can make an informed decision on being vaccinated if they are being coerced by misinformation, that's the issue with it. It causes preventable death & disability.

Yes. People who are nervous, hesitant, frightened, and fed bad info elsewhere, are coming on MN and getting more or the same.

I put it to you that it’s scientifically impossible that ‘99.99% of clinicians & scientists recommend vaccination for the general population. They don’t. Fact

Without you producing data on this statement its not credible as I am sure a ‘biologist’ like yourself would understand. You don’t know my credentials noor should you but given that you have stated that you being lead by ‘regulatory bodies’ without appropriately informing yourself I would suggest that you do so.

@Farrowblue

I put it to you that it’s scientifically impossible that ‘99.99% of clinicians & scientists recommend vaccination for the general population. They don’t. Fact

Without you producing data on this statement its not credible as I am sure a ‘biologist’ like yourself would understand. You don’t know my credentials noor should you but given that you have stated that you being lead by ‘regulatory bodies’ without appropriately informing yourself I would suggest that you do so.

@Farrowblue This doesn't really make sense

As I've said several times

1. I don't have access to the raw trial data so cannot evaluate it - neither do you
2. No one individual can evaluate something as huge as this on their own - this is why it is done by teams of scienists
3. I am aware of my limitations & know that I don't have all the skills necessary (noone does- see point above) to critically evaluate it. Therefore as in other things in life, I rely on experts.

You assessed all phases of the clinical trials? Agreed with their cellular/animal modelling? How did you assess their power calcuation? Their statistical methods? Risk of bias? Spend a solid month critically evaluating all of this?

If misinformation against the vaccines is removed, misinformation in favour of the vaccines should also be removed. There is plenty of both, but pro-vax is almost always allowed to stand. And who gets to decide? Twitter stamps "misleading" on BMJ/Lancet articles if they don't sing the vaccines' praises. It's fascinating.

Twitter stamps "misleading" on BMJ/Lancet articles if they don't sing the vaccines' praises.

Link? Haven't seen anything of the sort unless the paper is retracted (and even then it tends to stay up and be endlessly cited & retweeted)

It's amazing how people live their lives for decades trusting doctors and dentists and surgeons to save their health, pilots and train drivers to deliver them safely, food hygiene experts to feed them safely, police and fire services to protect their neighbourhoods, teachers to teach their children.....

And now all of a sudden they're like I DO MY OWN RESEARCH

It's ludicrous. And disinformation on social media and sites like MN does a lot to encourage this insanity.

I think they should remove false information and conspiracy theory type stuff.

There's a difference between someone choosing not to have the vaccine and someone saying BoJo puts Microchips in the booster to make them have heart attacks etc.