Will they create a traditional vaccine as opposed to the mRNA?

[TheOldStar]

Does anyone know if there are plans to develop a traditional vaccine for covid? I think the uptake would be much higher if they did.

Traditional vaccines do seem to be more effective, the mRNA just seems to limit symptoms in many cases.

I’m in the Novavax trial. Efficacy has been shown to be very high - pretty much as good as the mRNA ones, with way fewer side effects. Also can be stored at fridge temperature and easy to transport.
Many countries around the world waiting for Novavax-Australia being prominent among them- because of the high acceptability.
WHO granted emergency use last week, European Medicines Authority expected to approve next week, could be as soon as tomorrow.

The mRNA & cDNA vaccines are not gene therapy, this is really problematic phrase given how they actually work.

Gene technology and immunology is so complex (I definitely struggled with the latter), and you really need to have proper education & research experience in both to understand the differences between what is classed as gene therapy for somatic disorders and these vaccines.

It's allowed a whole world of anti-vaccine misinformation to spring up, as true gene therapy is inherently risky - these risks are justified because if you're having it's because you have a life limiting genetic disorder. Obviously this would be unacceptable for a vaccine programme - which is not what they are.

If you do not have a background in genetics then trust the scientists who grabbed the first chance to have multiple mRNA vaccines for themselves & family members.

mRNA vaccines are no more "gene therapy" than getting infected with the COVID virus itself is.

They offer you a choice - would you rather have...

A) a small amount of RNA introduced into some muscles cells in your shoulder via a vaccine - where it will temporarily get some cells in that area to produce fragments of proteins found in the SARS-CoV-2 virus? Protecting you from future illness.

B) a small amount of RNA introduced into some cells in your lungs via the SARS-CoV-2 virus - where it will replicate causing many cells in your lungs to produce huge quantities of the complete SARS-CoV-2 itself, leaving your lungs filled with fluid, making it difficult for you to breath and infecting others?

With the omicron wave - you're almost certainly going to be getting a dose of RNA. The question is how would you like it delivered???

Why do people insist on saying they are experimental. That's just anti vax talk.

I’m not against gene therapy that goes through the proper process of trials and testing at all.

That kind of implies you don't think the mRNA vaccines have gone through proper processes...

And they're not bloody experimental FFS. It's language like that that loses you credibility you know...

mRNA vaccines are no more "gene therapy" than getting infected with the COVID virus itself is.

this, this, this.

And the technology has been around or in development for decades, I worked in ahene therapy lab in the mid nineties (for cancer not vaccines). And the vaccines aren't experimental, they've been granted experimental licences, with is an entirely different thing. And where are they talking about 3 monthly boosters every year? I haven't seen that at all! I've had 3 this year, which I'm really grateful for as I've never had covid and don't want it (both for the effects on DH lungs but also the reported effect on brain cells - I need all mine!) But that's because it was a novel virus and everyone was naive to it surely? I havents even anyone suggesting we would do more than have an annual covid jab like and possibly with the flu jab going forward? Where is this information? Surely not many countries could afford to keep all that infrastructure and staff vaccine centres continuously year on year which is what would be needed for quarterly vaccines. And it's clearly not necessay in the summer months anyway, unless you are elderly maybe?

I think covid has allowed mRNA to be truly tested and as such it will become the new vaccine technology. The trialling also has huge benefits to be people suffering from immune/neurological diseases such as MS as it’s pushed a lot of their trials forwards.

@PineappleMojito

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@PineappleMojito

Again, there is nothing to indicate the mRNA vaccines would be needed to be offered more frequently than those using other methods, or that even if you did have one mRNA vaccines this somehow means you need to have others.

Also I don't believe anyone is talking about offering vaccines every 3 months.

@TheOldStar

I thought they hadn’t produced a traditional vaccine as there wasn’t time?

No, it wasn’t time issue. It is the fact that coronaviruses in general mutate constantly. A traditional vaccine using attenuated (live weakened virus) or inactivated virus components (dead virus), would only be effective for that exact virus and only last until the next mutation. Covid mutates roughly once every three months to date. mRNA vaccines are a new breakthrough that are more effective as instead of making us immune to the virus itself, it makes us immune to the proteins the virus produces which makes us sick. The virus has to mutate many more generations before the proteins it produces change. The reason why the various mRNA vaccines are more or less effective to new Covid variants is really due to the immunity they individually stimulate and how fast or slow the vaccine wears off.

Covid boosters will probably be added to annual cycle like the flu shot. I expect they’ll analyse which Covids are out and about and do a booster shot to tackle those varieties.

@PineappleMojito
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It’s not an experimental treatment though? The Covid vaccines all went through the same safety trials and checks. They simply had front of the queue priority and that’s how it was done so fast. Normally there is a huge backlog and lack of funding and that is why vaccines take longer. It’s all logistics and money, not the science slowing down nonurgent vaccines.

I had auto immune symptoms triggered by covid March 2020, some of which I still have mildly. If the vaccines had been around then I would have preferred that to me and two of my adult children catching it from patients at the hospital we work at!

@PineappleMojito
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The Covid vaccine isn’t gene therapy at all. While using mRNA in a vaccine for a virus is new, the use of mRNA to fight off pathogens has been around for twenty years mostly as cancer immunology treatments. It’s a safety tried and tested technology being used in a new way, that is all.

[quote]Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.[/quote]
The implication of this statement is also that the mRNA vaccines haven't been through "the proper process of trials and testing", which is obviously not the case..

My GP couldn’t tell me anything apart from “it’s safe” pretty much. Total party line speech

To be fair to your GP, he/she won't actually know. Immunology is a totally different field.

[quote EmpressCixi]@PineappleMojito
I’m not against gene therapy that goes through the proper process of trials and testing at all.

The Covid vaccine isn’t gene therapy at all. While using mRNA in a vaccine for a virus is new, the use of mRNA to fight off pathogens has been around for twenty years mostly as cancer immunology treatments. It’s a safety tried and tested technology being used in a new way, that is all.[/quote]
Are there licensed mRNA treatments for cancer? Do you have any examples?

Heres all the licenced Gene Therapy applications in the US where I am: www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/cellular-gene-therapy-products/approved-cellular-and-gene-therapy-products

I'm sure there's a similar list for the UK.

Most people with AI conditions will know that it can flare up with infection.
Mine is very well controlled and I have no symptoms normally. This week I have a very mild cold and it's no surprise that I am now in pain all over.
Multiply that many times over with covid which can cause a life threatening cytokine storm (massive inflammatory reaction).
I've had AZ and MRNA and neither gave me any side effects, covid on the other hand, made me more ill than I have ever been.

@Sonex

Heres all the licenced Gene Therapy applications in the US where I am: www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/cellular-gene-therapy-products/approved-cellular-and-gene-therapy-products

I'm sure there's a similar list for the UK.

Sorry, was that supposed to be a reply to my query @Sonex?

I work in the field, so am aware that various mRNA therapeutics have previously been trialled/are in the trial pipeline, but to my knowledge none has ever been effective. I am often wrong though, so curious to see if @EmpressCixi knows something I don't.

There's a melanoma one in that list but you would know presumably how effective it is or not, presumably it must have shown some promise to get to that advance stage.

The sino vaccines are a bit crap, but Valneva and Novavax appear to be good vaccines.

They won't win round the hardened anti vax conspiracy nuts, but will probably convince the kind of people who mostly do get vaccines but were hesitant about this one. And we should bear in mind that "hesitant" people are actually a lot commoner than "100% anti vax" people.