Will they create a traditional vaccine as opposed to the mRNA?

[TheOldStar]

Does anyone know if there are plans to develop a traditional vaccine for covid? I think the uptake would be much higher if they did.

Traditional vaccines do seem to be more effective, the mRNA just seems to limit symptoms in many cases.

Russian Sputnik is not traditional vaccine either! It is using adenoviral vector, same principle as in AZ. The only difference the Russians used human adenovirus as a vector (chimp for AZ)

@TheOldStar

Can someone explain the science behind mRNA in layman’s terms? Why do people think it changes their DNA? Why does the scientist who created it think it’s a bad idea?

mRNA goes into your cells and it's information is used by your ribosomes so they can code for spike protein. It is then rapidly degraded.

It goes nowhere near your DNA as it is unable to enter the nucleus, so impossible for it to change or interfere with your DNA. (We also lack the two enzymes - reverse transcriptase & integrase that would be needed for it to be inserted into your DNA even if it magically did get into the nucleus)

The "OMG vaccines change your DNA and give you cancer/AI disease/infertility" is just another iteration of anti-vaccine misinformation, propogated by large disinformation groups designed to scare people off vaccination.

Why does the scientist who created it think it’s a bad idea?
Unsure if you're posting in good faith. Robert Malone did not "invent mRNA technology" (easily verified by looking at his portfolio of research), and the fact that he claims he did should give you an idea of his credibility.

He has spread vaccine & coronavirus misinformation throughout the pandemic, including pushing ineffective drugs like ivermectin. Don't think he's actually gone as far as to claim vaccines change DNA though.

Don't get vaccinated if you don't want to but it's good to get your information from reliable sources and do some fact checking before you automatically believe what you see.

Most of these mRNA and viral vector vaccine skeptics clamoring for "traditional" vaccines are usually just basic anti-vaxxers.

MMR is a traditional vaccine. Same people moaning about mRNA jabs probably moan about that one too.

@bobbie42

Most of these mRNA and viral vector vaccine skeptics clamoring for "traditional" vaccines are usually just basic anti-vaxxers.

MMR is a traditional vaccine. Same people moaning about mRNA jabs probably moan about that one too.

No we’re not. Many in my position who were told mRNA wasn’t the best option for us medically when this rolled out, now being told we have no other option. AZ off the table. We are being given a rubbish choice. I had 2 doses of AZ, had no problem with that. Never been an anti vaxxer in my life. I hate the position I’m in. I want to do the right thing and be boosted but could be at risk of worsening my health if I do. I can’t get any definitive answers about the link between mRNA and autoimmune problems in those with existing conditions even from my consultant. It’s rubbish.

@bobbie42

Most of these mRNA and viral vector vaccine skeptics clamoring for "traditional" vaccines are usually just basic anti-vaxxers.

MMR is a traditional vaccine. Same people moaning about mRNA jabs probably moan about that one too.

Yes - I'm very interested to see the loops these individuals/groups will tie themselves into when trying to discredit Novavax when it's approved here, aftering clamouring that the issue is mRNA/cDNA technology

I'm sure they'll think of something!

Why would the mRNA vaccines be any more likely to 'give' you an autoimmune condition than vector-based, protein-based or inactivated/attenuated virus? Don't get it? Surely any immune response caused by anything - any type of artificially induced one (any vaccine) or any viral or bacterial infection itself can tip over into auto immune issues in any genetically succeptible people? (Aleay a few genetic outliers with weird immune systems, not something vast majority of people need to worry about, plus you'd know by middle age if you had one, surely?)

DH has an auto immune condition that affects his lungs. He's had 2 AZ and Pfizer booster with zero noticeable effects at his subsequent checkups (plus a chest x-ray).

WHY/HOW would mRNA vaccines be worse for someone with an autoimmune condition? Why have you been advised that? The end result of all these vaccines is the same - stimulat immune system to produce T and B cell antibodies to the spike protein of the Covid 19 virus. What's the difference how that's achieved?

Oh god don't tell them about AZ and cDNA!

So can we assume that the mRNA refusing person with autoimmune issues isn't taking any biologics for their condition? Or has ever had any other medication for it - because the actual side effects can be pretty atrocious?

@KeepingOnKeepingUp

Novavax has been approved by the WHO for emergency use, I believe, and approval in the UK/US/EU is pending. The delay is because of manufacturing issues rather than efficacy.

It is a more traditional type of vaccine and results from phase 3 trials were very good against early variants. I've no idea on its Omicron effectiveness. Lots of people in Australia and the US claim to be holding out for it rather than more innovative vaccines so it could make a big difference if it works against new variants. And a game changer in low income countries as it's cheap and easy to store.

That's interesting. I suppose it will have been tested against earlier variants though so may not be as effective against Omicron. Covid itself plays havoc with the immune system, more so in the unvaccinated.

A question I'd like to ask is whether there is any work being done on new vaccines, the holy grail of a vaccine that actually prevents infection.
Personally I don't care what they put in it I'd take it like a shot.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

So can we assume that the mRNA refusing person with autoimmune issues isn't taking any biologics for their condition? Or has ever had any other medication for it - because the actual side effects can be pretty atrocious?

I’m not currently taking biologics, but have. I know the side effects. Not fun. My condition is currently the best it’s been in a long time, in fact I’ve had a good few years since a bad flare and haven’t needed those awful meds that cause bad effects. Pardon me for not wanting to screw with that.

@PineappleMojito

I find that really suprising - as a relative of several patients with complex AI situations going on, none of them have been advised by their immnuology team to not go ahead with mRNA vaccination.

It is also something I have been following closely - there is no hypothetical basis that these vaccines would be more likely to trigger AI conditions, and AFAIK there's no real world evidence from the roll out of billions of doses.

What is your doctor's rationale for advising you against it? Why would Novavax be a better option?

As another poster described, any foreign antigen has the potential to trigger the AI cascade in susceptible indvidiual, it doesn't matter if it's from an infection or from vaccines with varying methodology.

Other important points:

mRNA has a very short half-life in cells due to the endonucleases we have there that quickly chew it up and convert it into its constituent building block nucleotides. So it hangs around in the cell cytoplasm (can't get into the nucleus of the cell where our own DNA instructions are stored (chromosomes)) for a bit once delivered, makes the Covid 19 S spike protein antigen a few times which is expressed on the cell surface of the muscle cells in your arm, then degrades away. I think this is estimated to be in the region of hours. The reason we have all these enzymes that chew up mRNA in our cells is to protect against incoming RNA virus invaders - like covid 19. Which brings me to an important point. This process is exactly the same as what happens when you get infected by a virus - which happens to people 100s of 1000s of times a year/month/day? So if you already have an AI condition, you're no worse off. And if you haven't developed one yet, why would this as opposed to all the colds you get make any difference?

@Sonex

Why would the mRNA vaccines be any more likely to 'give' you an autoimmune condition than vector-based, protein-based or inactivated/attenuated virus? Don't get it? Surely any immune response caused by anything - any type of artificially induced one (any vaccine) or any viral or bacterial infection itself can tip over into auto immune issues in any genetically succeptible people? (Aleay a few genetic outliers with weird immune systems, not something vast majority of people need to worry about, plus you'd know by middle age if you had one, surely?)

Yup, this.

Thanks @IncompleteSenten, really clear and easy to understand video clips.

For those wondering if there is research being done on more "traditional" vaccines.

Yes - there are loads of different vaccine candidates at different stages of development and approval...

www.raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2020/3/covid-19-vaccine-tracker

And guess what? We're currently using the ones that have been shown to work!!!

Indeed. The medical team at Bart's where my DH goes for his AI lung condition - sees lung specialists, immunologist and rheumatologist, as well as the society for his diesease ALL wholeheartedly recomended he get a covid vaccine - any vaccine, as obviously covid itself would be terrible for his already scarred lungs. They were more than happy for him to have teh Pfizer booster. He's had it, early of course so a few months ago, with no issues and no worsening symptoms.

I totally understand that someone controlling an AI condition wants to keep things as stable as possible - believe me, but there is no more risk to that that I can see through having an mRNA vaccine or apriteing based vaccine, as there is to getting covid, or flu, or getting run down. Doctors and immunologists and rheumatologists understand that, because they're spent decades doing A level Biology/medical degrees/professional qualifications/years of experience and practice. I understand it to a lesser degree because I did A level Biology and a 4 year degree in Molecular Biology with modules on Molecular Immunology and Virology. It's complex stuff. If you haven't had that level of biological education, why would you look to nutters on Facebook and conspiracy theorists and scared people with poor mental health for your information rather than speaking to your doctors and specialists?

I understand the concern from people already with AI conditions, in which case I'm sure your doctors can reassure you - for all the reasons mentioned on this thread.

The rest of the mRNA hysteria is just the ranting of the me, me, me it's all about me, I have to be special or different anti-vax conspiracy theorists who, perversely, are becoming more and more distressed as the months go on as the vast, vast majority of people who have had -whatever vaccine it's flavour of the month to have some ridiculous concern about- are absolutely fine. It was AZ first remember (we'll all die of blood clots!), I'm sure as soon as Novavaz comes out they'll all be convinced it gives you covid 19.

And what is Gene Therapy? And what is wrong with Gene Therapy? If Gene Therapy becomes useful to help with your AI condition would you refuse that? With yout background you must be able to see that the term Gene Therapy is a very woolly, catch all phrase for a vast array of different types of biotechnology, especially as, in this case, it goes nowhere near your actual genes (in the nucleus) I was doing it almost 30 years ago post university doing cancer research. Nothing to do with its application in vaccine technology.

I have already said that I think that people with an AI condition aren't conspiracy theorists and I can understand their concern, however misplaced. I think you may have attached too much significance to the phrase Gene Therapy, personally, but that's your right.

I haven’t been told to have it or not to have it either
Ok that makes sense @PineappleMojito

The issue is partly about how often they’re saying we’ll have to have them.
This isn't unique to the mRNA vaccines though? Any established vaccine programme is likely to be like 'flu where it is offered annually - whatever the technology is. I also don't follow why this prospect would make you more likely to turn it down now.

Long term effects are yet to be seen. I can’t find any data that satisfies me either to tell me it’s safe or not, since there’s very little data that covers my situation.
Well long term data cannot exist given they were only rolled out last year - again this is true of all vaccines & coronavirus infection itself. As I've said before, long term emerging side effects from vaccination are biologically implausible (you're not suddenly going to have a reaction>6 months post vaccine, which is why we can be reasonably confident with the data we do have from billions of doses) but I do appreciate that may not be reassuring enough when it's your own health you're talking about!

I took part in that freely and without any looming threat from a government that my freedoms may be removed in the future if I didn’t. I don't see how this relates specifically to mRNA vaccines though?

I hope you're able to get access to Novavax/AZ or another vaccine you're comfortable with.