Time to think about closing the schools

[DolphinFC]

ONS survey finds that education staff are 37% more likely to catch Covid than other workers.

Previous data showed they were no more likely to catch covid than other workers and many people (especially MNetters) felt that this was all the proof needed to keep schools open.

Well, new data shows the reverse is now the case.

For clarity :

The OP is quoting Michael Wilshaw!

I see. The lack of context made it seem as though the poster was proposing it.

She put two posts is succession... this one ended up getting a bit isolated...

Silly billy OP!

@Piggyinblankets
Ah, I was confused - thank you for pointing it out. I thought @LittleBabyCheeses was asking teachers to sacrifice themselves which is what I found unacceptable. I will put down the Baileys. Apologies @LittleBabyCheeses.

I am vaccinated @Waxonwaxoff0 and lucky enough to have had a booster. But then two of my vaxxed colleagues (not old enough for a booster at the time) have just come out of hospital because of complications due to Covid; three others have been absent for more than six weeks. Not everyone has ‘just a cold’ symptoms like you seem to believe, hence why I believe there is a large element of sacrifice needed to enter the Covid pits which are schools where there have been no mitigations. Michael Wilshaw clearly believes it to be the case too. It’s a shame people repeatedly fought against mitigation in schools as even a few measures would have made a difference this term.

I agree @BustopherPonsonbyJones.

And it's easy for people who don't experience it each day to judge.

[quote Sherrytriflestrull]@SpinsForGin

So are you in schools each day?

I'd be interested in reading that research. Does it include ks1 children? The impact on them has been shocking. [/quote]
Not every day but regularly. I sisal to schools daily though as I send students out on placement.
My research focuses on secondary schools but my colleagues look at primary age so I've seen their research. I'm also a parent of a 7 year old and governor at a primary school in a deprived area with responsibility for curriculum and standards - it's a pretty depressing picture.

I genuinely do not believe that the majority of the general public think it's teachers to the slaughter and don't care about their health.

I don't think the PP who said schools should close but no to going back to teaching because none of the teaching staff wanted that answered my question of what the alternative is?

Sorry no to going back to online teaching

@CurlyhairedAssassin

I'm a governor at a school and I know how tough its been but it's also been tough for lots of other

With respect, @SpinsForGin, you are not actually in schools day to day, working in them. A learning walk and governors' meeting every now and again tells you very little about staff experiences day to day. We all put on a show to governors when they come in to school as it's about presenting ourselves in the best light. Being positive about everything. Not one member of staff would be willing to enter a governors' meeting to say if staff are unhappy or uncomfortable to do x, y and z practice.

I've worked in a bad school in the past where a LOT was hidden from governors. They didn't have a clue about some of the stuff that went on, and ultimately were powerless to make any real changes to how the school was run.

So no, I really don't think you do know how tough it's been for school staff.

I work with schools as part of my full time job. I speak to teachers and school staff weekly..... I train them, support them and send students on placement in them.... so I've got a pretty good understanding of what is happening in schools.

As a governor I'm chair of the curriculum and standards committee so have analysed the data so can see how groups are performing compared to the pre covid years. It's also part of my job to analyse and understand this data. Closing schools would be catastrophic for a significant number of young people.

@SpinsForGin

It is not the same.

Are you covering lunch and break duties? Are you turning up each day wondering how many of your class have fallen poorly overnight? Are you counting coughs and deciding if to send a child home knowing full well you will get a ton of abuse from parents? Are you sitting in a freezing classroom?

I don't want schools to close. I desperately want them to stay open. But more money is needed to support schools and the government need to admit there are problems.

Sherry one of of the worst things is seeing an ill student and wondering what to do with them, knowing with evry cough they could be spreading it.
The messaging about isolation with coughs is totally lost and people within settings put their own interpretation onto the data and instructions.

[quote Sherrytriflestrull]@SpinsForGin

It is not the same.

Are you covering lunch and break duties? Are you turning up each day wondering how many of your class have fallen poorly overnight? Are you counting coughs and deciding if to send a child home knowing full well you will get a ton of abuse from parents? Are you sitting in a freezing classroom? [/quote]
Just because I'm not personally experiencing every aspect of the day doesn't mean I can't understand what is happening or than I'm incapable of empathy. I know it's difficult, I'm not denying that. I also know how hard school staff are working.

However, I still don't think closing schools is the answer.
You may think differently and that's your prerogative. 🤷🏼‍♀️

are you sitting in a freezing classroom?

Actually yes, but it's a lecture theatre with 100's of students who have travelled from all over and who have all spent time in schools and colleges on placement.

I said I desperately don't want schools to close. Im tired of people who don't actually know what it's like telling me how to feel.

@SpinsForGin

are you sitting in a freezing classroom?

Actually yes, but it's a lecture theatre with 100's of students who have travelled from all over and who have all spent time in schools and colleges on placement.

Didn't you say you'd only been back since July? Look, I know you're trying to be empathetic but please try and hear what teachers who have faced it every day for nearly two years are saying.

1- we don't want schools to shut
2- we are tired of being told how to feel

Didn't you say you'd only been back since July?
No, I said we only had an obligation to stop social distancing in July.... in line with government policy. I was teaching on campus every at every opportunity when we were legally allowed to.

Look, I know you're trying to be empathetic but please try and hear what teachers who have faced it every day for nearly two years are saying.

1- we don't want schools to shut
2- we are tired of being told how to feel

I'm not telling you how to feel. What I'm saying is I spend a significant amount of my working hours speaking to teachers, school staff and young people about their experiences of school. I am listening .... I'm listening literally every week! I get it, I really do. I'm a huge advocate of how hard school staff work, not just during covid but in general. It's a tough job.

@WeeHaggisFace
If the point of a lockdown is to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, the only option is to close schools and return to online teaching. I would also really limit who is assessed as a key worker to avoid primary classrooms having 80% of children in them. Any lockdown that doesn’t involve schools is pretty useless. If they don’t plan to close schools, I wouldn’t bother with other restrictions as I think the effects will be minimal and people will lose their livelihood needlessly.

In answer to your question, if hospitalisations do increase significantly over the next week, I would close schools throughout January (as this will be crunch point) and return to online teaching. I would hope the government would use that time to add proper ventilation in classrooms and change the law so that masks are worn by children. I would also allow younger children to be vaccinated as it appears to reduce transmission (or it did before omicron). Then we open schools up in February and see how cases go at that point.

I speak only for myself as most teachers loathe online teaching. I don’t like it very much either but if hospitalisations increase, I’m not sure what the alternative is. Equally, I am sure there would be many logistical problems if too many ‘proper ‘ key worker children are excluded from supervision but that’s what happens when people aren’t honest. Hopefully, the government could take the time to draw up a list which isn’t open to abuse.

I guess we just have to wait and see what happens this week.

@SpinsForGin
It really isn’t the same and no matter how empathetic you are, you won’t understand if you haven’t been in a school nine hours a day and experienced it.

I’m not dismissing your job as I’m sure it has challenges of its own but you really haven’t ‘got’ what it has been like for those of us who actually teach and don’t have offices to which we can escape when 23 out of 25 children in a class we teach have tested positive for Covid.

[quote BustopherPonsonbyJones]@SpinsForGin
It really isn’t the same and no matter how empathetic you are, you won’t understand if you haven’t been in a school nine hours a day and experienced it.

I’m not dismissing your job as I’m sure it has challenges of its own but you really haven’t ‘got’ what it has been like for those of us who actually teach and don’t have offices to which we can escape when 23 out of 25 children in a class we teach have tested positive for Covid.[/quote]
So only people who have actually taught in schools are allowed an opinion on this? Not sure that's a great basis for discussion tbh. Sometimes an informed outside perspective can be useful 🤷🏼‍♀️

For what's it worth, I have huge respect for everyone working in education at the moment. These have been incredibly challenging times and it looks like things aren't going to be getting any easier anytime soon. Hope everyone manages to get some sort of a break over Christmas.

@SpinsForGin
You can certainly give your opinion from an outsider’s perspective (and I like Mumsnet as it gives you the chance to see what other people are thinking, which is interesting ) but you haven’t experienced it. Even though we don’t all agree, I can spot a teacher’s post a mile off as we are all sharing similar experiences. Thanks for the good wishes though.

[quote BustopherPonsonbyJones]@SpinsForGin
You can certainly give your opinion from an outsider’s perspective (and I like Mumsnet as it gives you the chance to see what other people are thinking, which is interesting ) but you haven’t experienced it. Even though we don’t all agree, I can spot a teacher’s post a mile off as we are all sharing similar experiences. Thanks for the good wishes though.[/quote]
I've never claimed to experienced it as I'm not a teacher. However, I'm literally speaking to teachers on a weekly ( sometimes daily) basis specifically about their experiences of teaching and supporting young people. I've gathered information on dozens of schools which gives me and my colleagues a pretty good overview of the situation as we're looking at a whole range of schools not just one.
I spend a lot of time defending teachers and schools because I know how hard you're all working in challenging circumstances.

However, I still don't think schools should close. The impact of this on young people and their families increases with each closure and there are some things that will be too difficult to recover from.

even if we don’t agree

I’m not sure actually. I feel like I have to avoid the staff room part of MN because my views don’t align with the other teachers on here.

Bustopher

I'm hopeful that we don't need to close anything but realise it's unlikely.

If necessary we will be going back to homeschooling obviously, although I would request both children attend. My question was aimed at a PP who is a teacher and wanted schools closed and no return to online school lessons. I don't think I'll get a response to that though.

If they don’t plan to close schools, I wouldn’t bother with other restrictions

But we're trying to do everything possible so that we can keep schools open. Schools should be the last to close, after non essential retail, bars, restaurants, etc.