Not allowed to do my sales job until fully vaccinated

[VioletUltraViolet]

I delayed getting my vaccination due to a genuine fear of vaccines and having already gotten Covid antibodies from having the virus. I have decided to get the vaccine now because I just want this crap over and done with and I accept my role in getting society back to a level of normality.

I am booked for my first dose today at 14:30 and second dose is booked for 9th feb 2022.

I am an estate agent. My work sent a group message to say that any unvaccinated staff can not conduct any face to face appointments until they are fully vaccinated. This means no opportunity to earn commission by listing properties or selling houses, so my salary will essentially drop from roughly 43k to 24k. This is because I earn so much from doing the appointments and 24k is my basic. I have a daughter to support and I know everyone is going to say it’s my fault for delaying my vaccination but I just can’t believe this forced vaccination is spilling out in to non medical non clinical work.

For context, I booked my vaccine last week before I knew about the work changes.

What’re people’s thoughts on this kind of approach? My vaccinated colleagues are shocked by this too.

Completely unrelated, but why am I in teaching when I could earn more as an EA!?

So how come the nhs can? I’m not been argumentative, am genuinely interested…did the govt pass a special law?

Yes, well it’s going through parliament at the moment but they passed it for care home workers the Health & Social Care Act was amended.

But where is the data on recovered people getting reinfected and then going on to transmit the virus in statistically significant numbers?

When you can come up with a way of gathering that data let PHE know. I am sure they'd love to hear it @Beachcomber. They have to do all of the RR for that in the lab. There is no other way!

And, given that many business law firms and government sites are now quoting the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 as a counter argument to the difficulties of mandating the vaccine, plus the fact that OP has not been told she cannot work but will not be able to do the commission based work in client's houses, on top of her short tenure, the only thing @VioletUltraViolet can actually do is start to talk to her boss about further reasonable adjustments.

There is a balance. And only OP can find out if her employer has struck it correctly.

I haven’t read tft but from an employers point of view sending you out, unvaccinated, to meet multiple people in enclosed spaces puts you at risk which in turn risks their staffing ratios and profits/any sick pay expenses. Plus until your second vaccine you have to isolate if you’re a contact. From a business point of view it makes sense to move you to an office based role to minimise your exposures through work and disruption. Client perspective is no doubt a consideration too, but I think an element of responsibility to you may be at play as well.

I think they have handled this badly- the “immediate effect” announcement looks like they are panicking.

However I do understand why they are worried about an unvaccinated tram member meeting clients. Some clients might need reassurances before letting people into their house or spending time with someone in an inside space on viewings.

If there was an outbreak linked to the firm, the damage to reputation could be substantial.

In that instance if they can say “all client facing staff are fully vaccinated” then it’s a case of everyone did their best to prevent that, but sadly there are no guarantees in life.

But I’d they can’t say that then a lot of people would view them very poorly.

It’s an instance of freedom of choice doesn’t mean freedom from consequences sadly.

Janis "If I can avoid an unvaxxed person in my home, I will. Why ever not?"

Are you going to be asking for proof?

@JanisMoplin

I too support people's right to choose. That is, my right to choose who enters my home. You can choose to vax or not. I can choose whom to hire. Yay free choice! That isn't coercing them. They can choose not to work for me. Some did actually.

Yes, I already risk Covid by going to the supermarket. But that is a risk I cannot avoid. Plus am only there for 10 minutes. If I can avoid an unvaxxed person in my home, I will. Why ever not?

You can of course choose who enters your home. Or who you have a coffee with.

But employers are bound by laws. Employers are not allowed to discrimate. Thankfully. And IMO we would be very unwise to change that. The OPs employer has decided to discrimate against her on the basis of private medical information. What if employers want to discriminate against people because they are pregnant or have a medical condition?

Why are so many people so willing to chuck away hard fought for standards of decency?

I understand that people are afraid but if you are vaccinated what are you so very afraid of?

And if you reply to that that the vaccines do not prevent infection and transmission then what makes you think that other people being injected with a vaccine that doesn't protect you will suddenly make your vaccine more effective??

Either the vaccines work at community level or they don't. And it seems they don't. Let's be grateful that they seem to reduce the severity of symptoms. But that is an individual protection not a community one.

Vaccinated does not mean immune. So the people calling others "antivaxx" and discriminating against them are massive hypocrites with their heads in the sand. Currently where I work we have 2 people who are ill with delta, both double vaccinated and who both gave it to others before they realised they were ill. This is happening up and down the country.

I'm gobsmacked that there are so many people backing the chucking away of rights, the division of society and mass discrimination all in the defence of a vaccine that is so ineffective at preventing infection that one might argue that it is a treatment and not a vaccine.

I'm gobsmacked that there are so many people backing the chucking away of rights, the division of society and mass discrimination

Because its a permission to be a bully at the same time feeling "progressive", since racism and homophobia is uncool in 21st century.

I'm gobsmacked that there are so many people backing the chucking away of rights, the division of society and mass discrimination all in the defence of a vaccine that is so ineffective at preventing infection that one might argue that it is a treatment and not a vaccine.

And you almost had me... until that last line.

Pshaw!

"I'm gobsmacked that there are so many people backing the chucking away of rights, the division of society and mass discrimination"

Maybe we're fed up of anti-vaccers clogging up our hospitals making the rest of us endure restrictions and potentially another lockdown. Yes, I know there are vaccinated people in hospitals too, but at least those people have made the effort.

Oh, @Beachcomber did you have a think about the reasons that there is no data on recovered people getting reinfected and then going on to transmit the virus in statistically significant numbers?

Or is that not in your remit?

OK so where do you draw the line between what is a treatment for the individual and what is a vaccine that can be considered to contribute to a community? The CDC had to change their definition of vaccination in order to keep calling covid products vaccines so at least we know where they stand.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Oh, *@Beachcomber did you have a think about the reasons that there is no data on recovered people getting reinfected and then going on to transmit the virus in statistically significant numbers?*

Or is that not in your remit?

I think there is no data because the virus is new and data takes time to gather.

There was a study done comparing infection rates and household transmission rates in vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

I don't see why a similar study could not be done comparing vaccinated and recovered people.

@DaisyNGO

Janis "If I can avoid an unvaxxed person in my home, I will. Why ever not?"

Are you going to be asking for proof?

I advertised for vaxed cleaners on Gumtree so yes, they offered proof. And I showed them my proof. I know many people on MN think of this as some terrible infringement of personal liberty. I don't. I am not British and I don't identify with the outrage over showing a NHS Covid pass, when I have already got the vax. Neither is my cleaner.

@Beachcomber I disagree with you that the vaccines are completely in effective or that the situation is as black and white as you say. I doubt we will agree on that.

[quote Beachcomber]OK so where do you draw the line between what is a treatment for the individual and what is a vaccine that can be considered to contribute to a community? The CDC had to change their definition of vaccination in order to keep calling covid products vaccines so at least we know where they stand.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article254111268.html[/quote]
Is that part of our possible divide? Are you American? That might explain some of it!

'Covid products'???

Maybe we're fed up of anti-vaccers clogging up our hospitals making the rest of us endure restrictions and potentially another lockdown.

You own the hospitals now?

I think there is no data because the virus is new and data takes time to gather.

No. That isn't what you asked. You had a very specific question But where is the data on recovered people getting reinfected and then going on to transmit the virus in statistically significant numbers?

I asked you HOW you thought that specific data could be collected?

There was a study done comparing infection rates and household transmission rates in vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Yes, with volunteers, iirr. In a closed 'system', easy to set up, easy to extrapolate, adds no additional risk of infection to anyone.

I don't see why a similar study could not be done comparing vaccinated and recovered people Again HOW? Think about it carefully...

I think you should join a union, keep all correspondence with your employer, and take legal advice.

...

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

Why not do similar studies in vaccinated and recovered people in addition to those done on vaccinated and unvaccinated people?

@Gwenhwyfar

"I'm gobsmacked that there are so many people backing the chucking away of rights, the division of society and mass discrimination"

Maybe we're fed up of anti-vaccers clogging up our hospitals making the rest of us endure restrictions and potentially another lockdown. Yes, I know there are vaccinated people in hospitals too, but at least those people have made the effort.

YY. And some people are fed up that their loved ones have waited in pain for an extra year to get their hip/ knee replacement.

Or died before they got their heart bypass.

Or not got their cancer treatment until it spread and could no longer be treated.

Or their teenager took their own life because they couldn’t get mental health support.

I care about these people’s rights, including not being discriminated against. These nothing quite so much like “ the division of society “ as being housebound in pain.

Or dead. They are pretty much divided from society too.

I suspect they feel their lot is a teeny tiny bit harder than someone getting a smaller work bonus for 8 weeks because they chose not to get vaccinated. And assumed it would only adversely affect others and not them.

These people have had no choice. I care about about their genuine worry, their genuine pain and their genuine freedoms and lack of choices.

[quote Beachcomber]@HoardingSamphireSaurus

I don't see what my nationality has to do with it. But no, I'm not American.

All I'm saying is that if the covid injections / products / vaccines / whatever you want to call them do not do a good job of preventing both infection and transmission then it is legitimate to question their status as vaccines. And if they reduce the severity of disease rather than prevent infection with it, they are treatments not vaccines. Which is not to say that they are not useful and important.

www.who.int/health-topics/vaccines-and-immunization#tab=tab_1

Vaccines reduce risks of getting a disease by working with your body’s natural defences to build protection.

Vaccines are also critical to the prevention and control of infectious-disease outbreaks.

www.britannica.com/science/vaccine

vaccine, suspension of weakened, killed, or fragmented microorganisms or toxins or other biological preparation, such as those consisting of antibodies, lymphocytes, or messenger RNA (mRNA), that is administered primarily to prevent disease.[/quote]
Then why quote the CDC at me?

And it would make a difference because of things like the CDC. Or any other differences in covid reactions between countries.

What would you say is 'a good job of preventing both infection and transmission'?

What do you base that on?

I am not sure why you have posted the WHO page or the dictionary definition that describes a vaccine and immunization. They are just that, a defintion, simple explanation.

Oh! I see! You want to define a vaccine by its efficacy rates. And you are caviling over terminology.

Well, a therapeutic vaccine treats a disease. They are a treatment. A specific type of treatment!

Sorry, I hadn't realised you were attempting sophistry! I'd have disengaged earlier if I had!

@Beachcomber

Yes, the coronavirus vaccines are vaccines You repeatedly post implying that they are not (first time I've seen you actually say it though)

They reduce infection & transmission risk, reduce the risk of severe illness and death. Their efficacy is comparable to 'flu vaccines.

For hep B vaccination, ~10% of the population don't form any kind of immune response. Vaccines are not perfect, they work when enough of the population take them up.

Op the Johnson vaccine we used in Ireland is one dose ? Would that be an option to get it over quicker

@Beachcomber

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

Why not do similar studies in vaccinated and recovered people in addition to those done on vaccinated and unvaccinated people?

Maybe, though that wouldn't answer your specific question.

And look Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures.