To think we just need to use the nightingale hospitals?

[Mummamama]

The (seven I think) nightingale hospitals that were built last year precisely for COVID have barely been used. Why can we not just set these up again and transfer COVID patients to them freeing up normal hospitals for usual things? My understanding was the army was going to he used to staff them, why can this not happen now??
I understand the importance of not overwhelming the NHS but there doesn't seem to be an end game plan anymore, we can't keep having restrictions forever. At some point surely everyone will get COVID and it seems you can get it multiple times. Is it not better then to use our resources to enable the NHS to cope with the inevitable rather than spending huge amounts on lockdowns?

@Motorina

**These are basically open-plan wards with rows of beds facing each other. They have even less privacy and dignity than a regular hospital ward.

They have limited patient toilets and catering facilities.

Most soldiers have a very different skill set than that required to care for the elderly and vulnerable.

If people wanted to work in nursing care they could walk into pretty much any care home in the country and get a paid job. But those settings are unable to recruit. Given this, I think the likelyhood of people volunteering do to so are minimal.

They could be a place to 'park' people to get them out of the way, but there would be absolutely no respect or dignity in doing so.

Our elderly deserve better**

I don’t disagree with your last sentence but what’s great alternative?

Where are the family members willing to take them in?

It surely better than being sent back to they’re own home, left alone for hours on end until a carer can get in once a day?

It’s not ideal but bed blocking is a huge problem

they weren't used because the survival rate would have been much lower for those patients than those receiving medical care

But what about the impact of having those COVID patience in the hospitals, it caused devastation to others. That money could have been used to support the hospitals better and yes in many hospitals they were (and still are ) on their knees .

If things had got as bad as it looked like they might
"If" things had got "bad" are you serious, are you aware of the figures of the deaths, are you aware of what our NHS and other frontline staff were put through, are still going through and will live with - I'm not sure what else you expected to happen at the time for it to be called bad !!

The hope was if you basically plugged people into oxygen and had unskilled people keep them clean and warm, then a percentage would pull through. It's an awful lot better than saying, "Sorry - this hospital's full - go home and die", which is what happened in India.

Just because we didn't get as bad as some countries we also did a whole lot worse than others. These hospitals were ill equipped to treat anyone, they had a multitude of issues and were a waste of money.

But that's no substitute for decent care in a proper hospital by skilled clinicians

I absolutely agree and that is what should have been supported (and still needs to be )not ideas that were useless.

Fortunately the NHS just about managed to keep everyone in the hospitals receiving comprehensive care. And, as others have said, Covid turned out to be a lot more complex to treat than 'give oxygen and hope', so the Nightingales were less suited than we first thought

Yes disgracefully there NHS and it's staff were pushed past its limits but thanks to its amazing staff it just about held on .

The hospitals didn't keep everyone is care, they were told to discharge people to care homes to make space ,as the hospitals filled up, killing 10s of thousands of people.

Having them and not needing them is a lot less bad than many other outcomes could have been. I for one do not begrudge the money spent because, if they'd been needed, it would have been because the alternative was so much worse.

We will just have to disagree, I do begrudge it, I begrudge massively, yes thankfully they were not needed as they were not fit for purpose with the limited "facilities" it had.

Trouble with keeping covid patients in "normal" hospitals is that covid has spread like wildfire through some healthcare settings. Inevitably when a covid ward is next to a "normal" ward, there's going to be cross contamination via ventilation, staff movement, equipment movement, etc.

are you aware of what our NHS and other frontline staff were put through, are still going through and will live with - I'm not sure what else you expected to happen at the time for it to be called bad !!

I’m not sure you’re aware - I’m frontline nhs and have been working with covid patients throughout.

It’s been bad.

The nightingales full would have been worse.

People trying to buy black market oxygen would have been worse.

Being unable to bury our dead before they rotted would have been worse.

All of these could have happened. The Nightingales were insurance against it.

The nightingales full would have been worse
But instead they were not needed as people were being released from our hospitals, into society to kill 10s thousands of people. So the question is could they have served a purpose after spending millions of pounds on them to try and save some lives.

People trying to buy black market oxygen would have been worse.Being unable to bury our dead before they rotted would have been worse
All of these could have happened. The Nightingales were insurance against it.

I disagree as I don't think they were set up, readily equipped and fit for purpose if they were needed, short of being a morgue, they were useless.

@Thinkbiglittleone

Sadly the nightingale hospitals were another badly thought out idea that was rolled out to look like this government cared about its public or had any idea what they were doing.

They could never staff them, so they yet again wasted a whole lot of money that could have actually gone to helping support the NHS through this shit show.

I,very naively, questioned this myself at the start of the pandemic, until I remember to do my research and realise it was a publicity stunt and they were effectively useless.

Who remembers the scenes from Italy right at the start of the pandemic ( at a time when flights from Italy were landing in the UK and disembarking passengers with no checks, but that’s another story). People in care homes abandoned by staff, mortuaries so full they were stockpiling dead bodies in refrigerated vans.... that is the six o’clock news nightmare the government was trying to avoid, and I don’t mean the nightmare for people involved, I mean the nightmare that would have followed them forever and ruined their careers. It’s no wonder they now think they are invincible, they have managed to dodge so many bullets during the pandemic, not by judgement, but purely by luck, but I have a feeling that the chickens are circling the hen house and coming into roost......

Okay you think people dying in gutters for want of any care would be less bad than the nightingales providing minimal care.

Yes, we disagree.

[quote tigger1001]@Mummamama

RockallMalinHebrides
"How do you plan to staff them?
Army! That's what the plan was last year. I know they won't all have much medical knowledge but if they are only treating COVID surely it's not going to take a 7 year medical degree to learn the ins and outs of every possible condition"

If you were so poorly you required ventilation would you want a qualified experienced nurse, or would you be happy with anyone irrespective of whether they were actually able to do the job?

[/quote]
Covid can exacerbate existing conditions so medics are needed who understand how other conditions might interact with it. For example, covid can cause a huge increase in insulin resistance is diabetic patients which can be made worse if steroids are given. You'd need a Dr who was capable of adjusting an insulin dose to treat a patient like that.

@Mummamama

Why did they ever waste our money to build them if they were never going to be used

Maybe not a quick solution then, but even if it means more time to train staff to work in them and offer them better pay surely that would be a saving over continual lockdowns?

When they were built at the beginning of the pandemic, it was an emergency response and nobody knew what to expect from Covid. It was assumed it would be a respiratory disease and patients could pile in on ventilators to be looked after by minimal staff (relative to a hospital ICU). We now know that Covid patients often have a lot wrong with them that a ventilator alone won't help with; things like organ failure (kidneys), inflammation etc. Basically they need a lot of intensive care and input from several different specialists and the Nightingale hospital model doesn't really fit. I don't see why older people that are only in hospital because they haven't got a suitable place to be discharged to couldn't use a facility like this though. They need relatively little nursing.

Okay you think people dying in gutters for want of any care would be less bad than the nightingales providing minimal care.

Nowhere have I said that. I have said I don't think they could provide any care this rendering them useless, I don't think they were set up, readily equipped and fit for purpose if they were needed, short of being a morgue, they were useless.

Even with redeployment, staffing in usual hospitals is at critically low levels.

No idea how the nightingale hospitals would've been safely staffed.

I suspect they were a political move rather than a practical one.

And lots of GP surgeries are seeing patients. My gran has had appropriate care. Most of my needs have been done online and via the ohone which is far more efficient and perfectly appropriate as to what was needed. My gp practice are fabulous and I'm very grateful.

With what staff? We barely have enough for the hospitals that currently exist.

We need to be paid more, no one wants to work for the NHS for such HUGE responsibilities for a pittance.

It is hard to believe OP that you don't know the reason! There are no spare ITU staff. Looking after someone with covid is very intensive and skilled. It is not a case of giving them a few drugs and a few meals a day! The Nightingale hospitals were a publicity stunt. I thought everyone knew that now!

@cansu

It is hard to believe OP that you don't know the reason! There are no spare ITU staff. Looking after someone with covid is very intensive and skilled. It is not a case of giving them a few drugs and a few meals a day! The Nightingale hospitals were a publicity stunt. I thought everyone knew that now!

Couldn't the army staff them?

Couldn't the army staff them?

Or perhaps the Downing Street staff. If they have time to have weekly parties late into the night they clearly do not have enough to do.

@cansu

It is hard to believe OP that you don't know the reason! There are no spare ITU staff. Looking after someone with covid is very intensive and skilled. It is not a case of giving them a few drugs and a few meals a day! The Nightingale hospitals were a publicity stunt. I thought everyone knew that now!

This exactly, and most of them have been dismantled now, haven't they?

The government only rolled them out to be seen to be doing something. They knew they couldn't be staffed. That is why they had hardly any patients and were huge white elephants. Embarrassing really.

The army are mostly NOT trained medical people. Yes, they have a medical corps with skilled doctors and nurses etc. But it would still have been nowhere near enough to staff the Nightingales.

people are getting omicron - do you think if oyu work in the nhs or ary then you are immune - no

We are going to run out of staff, that were all ready depleted by Brexit and were already short staffed.
People want to come to this country and work but it now costs £2k to get a work visa which the employer pays and takes anywhere from 3-6 months to process.

@milly74

GPs are not seeing patients, fact

My GP is. I saw them a couple of weeks ago to look at DD toes which I think are thickening. Routine appointment. In person too. Even took a clipping!

Couldn't the army staff them?

The army are mostly NOT trained medical people and do not automatically know how to operate ICU equipment and beds with seriously ill patients in them!

Why is that so hard to understand? Why do people keep spouting this bollocks, as though the army (many of whom may have not long left school) is the magic panacea to everything?

The Nightingales were insurance against it.

That's got to be the crappiest insurance policy ever.

There's no staff for them. There was never staff for them. They are white elephants.

@Topseyt

Couldn't the army staff them?

The army are mostly NOT trained medical people and do not automatically know how to operate ICU equipment and beds with seriously ill patients in them!

Why is that so hard to understand? Why do people keep spouting this bollocks, as though the army (many of whom may have not long left school) is the magic panacea to everything?

Well much like Boris the army seems to be able to spend a lot of time on photo opportunities. They could both become nurses.

I know this will trigger many people on here, but the issue is not money. Those in charge of our hospital repeatedly say they 'are awash with funding " at the moment and have been throughout the pandemic.

The issue is staffing. It cannot be solved by throwing yet more cash at it.

@dropitlikeitsloth

I’m with you *@user333334*

@RoomOfRequirement WTAF!!!! How dare you!!! Don't you dare blame patients for this! It's attitudes like yours that prevent the NHS from taking a long hard look at itself and accepting that it isn't providing the standard of care it should be. That's not patients fault! GP surgeries need to accept the situation as it is and find safe solutions which don't leave vulnerable people to suffer!

Patients are not to blame. I can do a video call with the other side of the world for my job but a GP surgery can’t fathom the tech to video call someone who has a mole on their arm, won’t see them in person and makes the wrong diagnosis because they’ve taken a visual description over the phone, then it turns out it’s skin cancer. (Yes I’m angry) I mean, that’s not the patients fault that’s the whole bloody NHS system.

Women especially are ignored and misdiagnosed. The whole system and culture is antiquated.

The NHS would have enough money for decent basic technology if it stopped spending it on pointless middle management and random projects that take time away from what they should be focussing on (treating people!)

I could give a million to the NHS (If I had it) and most of it would get swallowed up in faff and nonsense. It would just disappear.

None of this is patients faults. We are heading towards it being privatised and tbh it’s no one’s fault except the NHS’s. It’s been underfunded because it haemorrhages money. It’s like trying to build a sandcastle in a drain it’s pointless.

It’s become a business that’s become such a British institution it’s become untouchable you literally can’t say anything bad about the NHS. It’s about time it looked in the mirror.

I found two lesions on my arm in lockdown. GP wanted to do a video call but I told him as I am covered in freckles he wouldn't be able to see anything meaningful on video so I went in to see him. It was precancerous and quickly sorted out.

I'm sorry your experience was different but I don't think you can judge the whole NHS on one experience, yours or mine.

It is very insulting to suggest that the army can adequately step in to provide medical care that professions spend years training for.

We don't have enough nurses or doctors to safely provide care in the hospitals we have, and both professions have further staff leaving in swathes.