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Covid

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Original poster

Vaccinations are a feminist (and fattist) issue

44 replies

Worldgonecrazy · 09/12/2021 09:17

Not sure how many of us subscribe to the brilliant Caroline Criado Perez newsletter. She’s the author of Invisible Women - highly recommended reading. This week’s newsletter contained important information regarding the efficacy of vaccination, particularly in women, because our fat distribution is different to the default male.

Link here newsletter.carolinecriadoperez.com/issues/invisible-women-default-male-injections-904923

In summary, Injecting into fat rather than muscle can make the vaccine less effective and also increases the risk of side effects. Women’s fat distribution means we have more subcutaneous fat in the shoulder area, and also anyone male or female who is carrying excess body fat around the injection site should also request a longer needle to ensure the vaccine is injected into a muscle and not into fat.

OP posts:

BingoandBluey · 09/12/2021 09:30

This is really interesting, thank you for sharing it. I can't believe that epi pens might not actually be working to inject into the muscle tissue for many women as well. It feels like companies realise that things don't necessarily work for women but then shrug their shoulders and carry on with their day.

TheDrsDocMartens · 09/12/2021 09:50

It’s quite shocking the things she shares. Very much like people just shrug and move on.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 10:53

Really shocking that they haven't provided for this.

TheDeckchairGardener · 09/12/2021 11:55

Mumsnet had a sponsored questions about flu and covid vaccinations with a GP a few weeks ago and my question was about this exact issue. This is my question and the answer I received:

TheDeckchairGardener
I have paid for a flu vaccine this year but have to wait until next year for my COVID booster.

My question relates to needles. Some vaccinations I have had did not hurt (in fact I barely felt my first COVID vaccine) but some did. Is this dependant on whether the needle penetrates muscle or fat? I have read that for maximum efficacy, the vaccine needs to be administered into muscle so considering the level of obesity, do you think longer needles should be used? (I am overweight myself which is why I am interested).
Thanks.

Hi @TheDeckchairGardener
How and where the vaccine is given and the equipment used can affect how painful a vaccination feels but there are other factors that affect it such as the composition of the vaccine (the ingredients and how acidic or alkaline it is).
Longer length needles are recommended for vaccination for individuals who have more fat covering their muscle in order to ensure that the vaccine is injected into muscle. This is because, for most vaccines, a better immune response is made if the vaccine is injected into muscle. It is recommended that vaccinators assess the area where they are going to give a vaccine and decide which length needle is required (unless the vaccine comes in a syringe with a needle already fixed to it).

Original poster

Worldgonecrazy · 09/12/2021 12:02

I feel, given the rushed nature ofthe mass vaccination centres, it will be incumbent upon us to do the asking, even if we have to inconvenience others or wait a few minutes.

Our social conditioning needs to be pushed aside for something this important.

OP posts:

Playgrind · 09/12/2021 12:09

Ooh that's very interesting, never heard this before. Was wondering why my first covid vaccines was incredibly painful for days but felt nothing the 2nd time.

Why don't the they train the vaccinators properly?!

TheDrsDocMartens · 09/12/2021 12:30

A lot of vaccinators are volunteers trained (& working) quite quickly.

A lot of medical professionals don’t always get the male/female differences or the differences in people of colour too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/12/2021 12:33

A lot of medical professionals don’t always get the male/female differences or the differences in people of colour too.

YY, it's surprising to me, but they don't.

Bobholll · 09/12/2021 14:45

How fat do you have to be for this to be an issue? Like a bit overweight or very? Or not at all, we all just have extra fat there?

I’m fairly skinny but my first covid jab, the nurse pinched all my skin on my arm upwards and then jabbed.. it hurt like hell and I thought it was a bizarre method (I get flu jabbed every year & no-ones ever done that before). I googled it & turns out it’s a completely incorrect way of giving a vaccine as it’s going into fat & not muscle Why are they allowing nurses to vaccinate like that?! My second jab was normal & hopefully my booster will be too 😬🙏🏼

Bobholll · 09/12/2021 14:45

*my vaccinator was a retired nurse.. she’d been retired for several years apparently ..

visitingagain · 09/12/2021 16:03

Another anti vaxxer thread, how many more must we endure!

ErrolTheDragon · 09/12/2021 16:10

@visitingagain

Another anti vaxxer thread, how many more must we endure!

It's not anti vax, it's legitimate concerns from people who want the vaccine, but realise it needs to be administered correctly.

visitingagain · 09/12/2021 16:17

This is an extremely niche problem though isn't it? I've had regular blood tests for years and have been all sizes from 10-18 and absolutely no difference at all in the size of needle, pain etc. I'm not sure there's any need for people to be demanding extra long needles at the clinic.

VirusgonnaVirus · 09/12/2021 16:18

@visitingagain

Another anti vaxxer thread, how many more must we endure!

How is this an anti vaccs thread? It's a pro vaccs, especially considering obesity is a complication of covid, and it seems injecting into fat has poorer outcomes.

visitingagain · 09/12/2021 16:23

I know it seems to be sort of pro vax... but it could easily be misinterpreted as why bother?

BogRollBOGOF · 09/12/2021 16:26

@visitingagain

Another anti vaxxer thread, how many more must we endure!

It's about maximising the efficacy of the vaccine!

1/10 for comprehension skills.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/12/2021 16:28

@visitingagain

Did you read the link?

A wide variation exists in thickness of the deltoid fat pad, with women having significantly more subcutaneous fat than men. A standard 5/8 inch (16mm) needle would not have achieved sufficient penetration for true deltoid intramuscular injection in 17% of men and nearly 50% of women in the study population.

You have an odd definition of 'niche'. Why are you being so dismissive of an effect which could affect nearly half of women?

visitingagain · 09/12/2021 16:30

@BogRollBOGOF you think it's about maximising the efficacy of the vaccine, but I see it as subtly casting doubt on whether the vaccine is effective when in reality there is a pretty strict training protocol for NHS vaccinators and that's why it's took so long to recruit and train them at the beginning of the year. I think this is only an issue for morbidly obese people.

visitingagain · 09/12/2021 16:31

@ErrolTheDragon that's why they inject you in the shoulder and not the stomach.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/12/2021 16:33

I think this is only an issue for morbidly obese people.

Are you an expert in the field?
Even if that's the case, since they are one of the groups who most need as much efficacy as possible from their vaccinations, then publicising this possible issue for which there is a solution seems like a very positive idea to me.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/12/2021 16:35

[quote visitingagain]@ErrolTheDragon that's why they inject you in the shoulder and not the stomach.[/quote]
The study mentioned refers to 'the deltoid fat pad'... shoulders. They're better than many other parts of the body but seems that adjustment may still be needed.

MythicalBiologicalFennel · 09/12/2021 16:38

@visitingagain

I don't know about you, but all my blood tests have been via a needle in the vein. This thread is about jabs / injections

Libertaire · 09/12/2021 16:42

There is no such thing as a ‘fattist’ issue. Obesity is a lifestyle choice, not a disease.

visitingagain · 09/12/2021 16:43

If you read the link @ErrolTheDragon it mostly refers to her anecdote about her friend using a long needle for obese people. Which is great news as vaccinators are trained to be aware of the issue. CCP has one agenda, which is womens health, but anything negative to do with vaccines can and will be used as a justification on here to cast doubt.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/12/2021 16:45

but anything negative to do with vaccines can and will be used as a justification on here to cast doubt.

You're the only person doing that.

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