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Covid

Boris Johnson set to approve new Plan B Covid restrictions

410 replies

WineGetsMeThroughIt · 08/12/2021 11:11

Just been announced. But what will this entail I wonder. 🤔

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-boris-johnson-minded-to-move-to-plan-b-of-rules-this-week-sky-news-understands-12489880

OP posts:
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NameChange2PostThis · 08/12/2021 12:37

@serengtisprinter

This government are a bunch of lying cunts

Times like this we need a like button on MN
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hygtt · 08/12/2021 12:38

But it is the only illness which is almost completely preventable for the vast majority of people if they'd only have a bloody vaccine!!!!

But if people took more exercise, ate better etc then loads of other issues would be prevented or reduced.

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hygtt · 08/12/2021 12:39

I wish more people would get vaccinated but we need to understand the resistance & educate. Forcing will do the opposite imo.

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Whatwouldscullydo · 08/12/2021 12:39

But it is the only illness which is almost completely preventable for the vast majority of people if they'd only have a bloody vaccine!!

A vaccine that doesn't even last 6 months...

If peope cared about the nhs they'd have funded it properly years ago instead of abusing a&e on a Friday night because they are 2 special to see a dr Monday morning.

They'd do more than just fucking clap.and bang saucepans on a bridge ffs.

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WineGetsMeThroughIt · 08/12/2021 12:42

[quote megustalacerveza]@WineGetsMeThroughIt almost 40% of people in hospital with covid are unvaccinated, even though only less than 10% of adults as a whole are unvaccinated. So the unvaccinated are taking up a disproportionate number of hospital beds. For something so incredibly preventable.

Please learn some maths.[/quote]

🙄 It was you who said every single unvax'd person was taking up a hospital bed.

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Jenala · 08/12/2021 12:42

Being vaxxed may reduce spread to some amount, though emerging evidence seems Omicron even less so. I could see an argument for vaccine passports if the vaccine was a highly sterilising vaccine, such as the smallpox vaccine. But it's not.

Which brings us to the crux of the issue, which is at what point is the vaccine worthwhile enough to both override individuals bodily autonomy and restrict their freedoms? Can anyone who feels positive about vaccine passports tell me where the line is? Vaccines as they are will not end covid, as in, cannot stop spread enough to force the virus to die out. So I'd would like to understand what the purpose of vaccine passports is? Just to slow down spread? And how much does the vaccine need to slow the spread in order for the cost (restricting freedoms and stripping individuals of bodily autonomy) to be worth it. If it prevented infection and transmission 10% of the time, would the cost be worth it? 20%? 50%? I'd really like to know what people think and if therefore my own opinion could be changed.

Secondly, if you're positive about vaccine passports, do you have any concern that this is a slippery slope? Are there other instances where bodily autonomy and personal freedom should be overridden for the greater societal good, with forced medical treatments? Could we force substance addicted woman to terminate pregnancies so as to put less pressure on social services? Could we force them to be sterilised if they don't get clean? Could we force adults with severe learning disabilities the same? After all they will need a lot of support and the NHS/social services are on their knees. What about forcing those who could have eye surgery instead of contact lenses to get the surgery in order to reduce the environmental impact of contact lenses? Should we force the very obese to have weight loss surgery if statistically doing so ends up putting less pressure on the NHS?

I realise the above are extreme examples that I'd imagine all, or I'd hope all, of us would think to be bad ideas. But I wonder if those for and against passports are sort of talking past each other. I think people worried about the passports are thinking about wider issues and what this kind of precedent could mean. It feels like a simple measure to help in a pandemic but really it's about really core human values - personal responsibility, bodily autonomy, freedom, choice, personal risk etc. We to varying degrees accept levels of government/state control (think prison/criminal punishment, mandatory schooling, driving licences, car insurance etc) but then we probably all have differing sense of where the line is and at what point personal liberty can be curtailed for greater societal good. For many of us, forced medications in order to take part in day to day life is a step too far, with huge potential ramifications, none of which seem positive. I'm really interested if those who think passports are good are thinking in those wider terms, of if the priority for them is more about a perception of trying to end the pandemic, no matter the cost?

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BrightYellowDaffodil · 08/12/2021 12:42

@megustalacerveza

Because regardless of your whataboutery, there is still - on the whole - more to life than Covid. Especially from a variant which doesn’t appear to be more dangerous. Your post neatly encapsulates the whole “I don’t care about mental health or anything else, just Covid, Covid, Covid”.

It just goes to show that all the “mental health is important” and “be kind” movements of the last few years mean nothing. They’re still treated as a disposable luxury.

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IfNot · 08/12/2021 12:44

IfNot

"People do realise that you can "take up a hospital bed" if you get cancer or have a heart attack, right? Covid is not the only illness out there! I refuse to have a digital id card basically, so as to protect an NHS that successive governments have destroyed. Yes, it's overwhelmed-when is it not?? That is down to the government to fix, not us to destroy our lives by stopping living so we don't "take up a bed".

But it is the only illness which is almost completely preventable for the vast majority of people if they'd only have a bloody vaccine!!!!You do realise it could be YOU or one of YOUR family members who ends up dying because there's no bed for you after an accident or a heart attack? Because someone who could have had a jab and stayed out of the ICU chose not to? That doesn't bother you at all?

This comment perfectly illustrate my point!! We are all supposed to lose our livelihoods (hospitality sector is FUCKED) or vaccinate our teenagers with a vaccine that changes hormones and no one knows why, or work in our houses that we cant afford to heat, or allow the government insane powers over what we do with our bodies and what we are and are not allowed to do...so that we don't TAKE UP A BED in an NHS that has been crumbling for YEARS. The focus is on the wrong thing!! Can you really not see that?? We stand to lose so much as a nation, all so we can protect something that the government should be protecting. I already know people who couldn't have cancer treatment because of covid, but it wasn't because of those selfish Covid patients taking up a bed it was because we have a healthcare system that is not, and has not been for years, fit for purpose!! The focus needs to be on "what are we going to do about THAT" not attacking individuals for objecting to proposed human rights violations.

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Songoftheseas · 08/12/2021 12:44

@pianolessons1

If you're not vaccinated you don't go into non-essential shops, restaurants, cafes, cinemas, theatre etc. Should have been doing that from the start.

Seriously, engage your brain. What is wrong with people behaving like mindless robots? The vaccines do not prevent catching or transmitting Covid, therefore ‘vaccine passports’ are next to useless. Look at other countries where they have been used for months and yet have high Covid case rates - France is one example.
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Lostinacloud · 08/12/2021 12:44

@Jenala great post, my point exactly.

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churchofthepoisonmind · 08/12/2021 12:46

People warned against this.
Go back through the Covid threads on MN and people were saying this would never end, even with vaccines. They were dismissed as conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers.
Some said we would end up with vaccine mandates. Ditto - again dismissed.
Some said all kids of all ages would be pressured to vaccine (after Hancock said that was never on the agenda). They were dismissed as fear-mongering. Yet does anybody seriously vaccines won't be opened up to all age groups in the coming months?
I've said all along. Efforts have been made right from the start to conflate quite reasonable objections with genuine conspiracy theories (5G, Bill Gates etc). Paid commentators and pharma sector trolls have completely blitzed any efforts to have a nuanced, progressive debate about all this.
And here we are now.

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WeirdArchitecture · 08/12/2021 12:47

@secondaries

We need vaccine passports.
And masks in all indoor spaces.
And work from home.

I would accept these measures if we could continue to exercise in non-local areas (because no-one needs drones over the countryside shaming people walking their dogs and police sitting in rural car parks, road blocks catching people visiting the dying etc).

Ah you're one of those then.

You don't want to go to work so love restrictions. But you want to be able to go on holiday in the uk and access the lovely countryside!

But everyone else has to go to work to keep society ticking over and deliver your groceries! So long as they finish work and stay home and dont dare go for a walk in the local park.

Because you're alright jack.
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megustalacerveza · 08/12/2021 12:49

@WineGetsMeThroughIt no, I didn't say that. It's pretty horrifying to see the poor level of reading comprehension and critical thinking ability on this thread.

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Bee4229 · 08/12/2021 12:49

I am fed up about hearing about the working from home thing. Most of us cannot work from home. Great if you can but most can't. If you work at home you are likely to be in a job that's pretty social distanced anyway!

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CaliforniaDrumming · 08/12/2021 12:49

Actually, I am just going to fly back to my home country for medical treatment where I will use my digital ID card, show my vax certificate and be treated by vaccinated healthcare staff. I am not flouncing. That just seems like the best option this winter and in 2022, for those who have the luxury.

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megustalacerveza · 08/12/2021 12:52

@IfNot but what a ridiculous way of thinking. The NHS should have been funded better, so we can't do anything to help things now? Yes, it should have been funded better but so bloody what? We're where we are NOW. It's an acute situation. There's no point in wittering and blaming when every single person can do their part to reduce pressure on the NHS by getting vaccinated and behaving sensibly.

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hygtt · 08/12/2021 12:52

behaving sensibly.

What does that mean?

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CapBarnacles · 08/12/2021 12:53

@FiHefyd

Of course he is. How else can he distract everyone from that video?!

This, exactly.
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Whatwouldscullydo · 08/12/2021 12:54

I am fed up about hearing about the working from home thing. Most of us cannot work from home. Great if you can but most can't. If you work at home you are likely to be in a job that's pretty social distanced anyway!

All these measures seem to be creating new issues amd filling hospitals with patients who would ordinarily be able to fight off their chest infections etc at home with OTc meds and some Abs..instead now no one has any immune system against daily bugs due to all the sanitising amd distancing.

Even if vaccinated against covid well that won't help that side effect will it

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leafygarden42 · 08/12/2021 12:55

It’s really sad living in a country which has the passport in place. Every single last person I know now scrambling to find a booster appointment are doing so ONLY so they can still go to a restaurant or go on their ski holiday after the deadline in mid January when all passes older than 7 months are automatically cancelled.Can’t anybody see that this is so wrong?Personally I wish to wait before double vaccinating my teens but this means they can’t go to sports clubs or with us to a restaurant unless we subject them to an uncomfortable covid test which now lasts only 24hrs.As an end of term treat, one of my DC was invited to go to see the new Spider-Man film. The ticket is €6, the Covid test he has to have so he can be allowed into a cinema is €25 and an uncomfortable hour out of our evening before to get him a negative test. And he will be negative as he always is because he’s had covid already and so despite many exposures has never been able to catch it again. It’s all utter bullshit and I’m so angry at these assholes all laughing at us!!

Hey - why not get the vaccine and get your teens vaccinated?? Then you don't have to get into such a stew about everything.

And maybe find better friends who don't stress you out with their plans for going on skiing holidays and out to restaurants, I mean - really? Who gives a shit?

It's great that its making them go and get their booster jabs. I'm seeing that as a plus - not a minus.

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megustalacerveza · 08/12/2021 12:55

[quote BrightYellowDaffodil]@megustalacerveza

Because regardless of your whataboutery, there is still - on the whole - more to life than Covid. Especially from a variant which doesn’t appear to be more dangerous. Your post neatly encapsulates the whole “I don’t care about mental health or anything else, just Covid, Covid, Covid”.

It just goes to show that all the “mental health is important” and “be kind” movements of the last few years mean nothing. They’re still treated as a disposable luxury.[/quote]
I DO care about mental health. In fact, I have been pretty vocal about how we shouldn't keep prioritising covid above everything else.

The part you seem to be missing here is cause and effect - there are no resources for other things if the NHS is collapsing because they've got no beds. What is the actual solution for this problem? What do you think we should do? Not treat anyone with covid? Let someone die of pneumonia because someone else needs talking therapy?

The only way out is to reduce the number of hospitalisations. You can bleat all you like about how unfair it all is but until people accept this, we will all be screwed.

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user1497207191 · 08/12/2021 12:56

@hygtt

behaving sensibly.

What does that mean?

I'd start with people maintaining social distancing when they can. Yes, I know you can't on a crowded bus or train, but when there is the space, then stay 2 metres away. What harm does it do to respect personal space?

Likewise wear a mask. Most people don't have disabilities so can easily wear a mask for a short time on public transport or in a shop.
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Iggly · 08/12/2021 12:57

I am fed up about hearing about the working from home thing. Most of us cannot work from home. Great if you can but most can't. If you work at home you are likely to be in a job that's pretty social distanced anyway

What are you on about.

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Lostinacloud · 08/12/2021 12:58

@leafygarden42 no I won’t get my teens vaccinated thank you very much.
They’ve had covid and you hardly would have known, certainly no long term effects or serious illness.
Risk of covid to my teens = 0%
Risk of a vaccine known to cause heart issues in some teens and young men = NOT 0%

I don’t care how small the risk is, it’s not 0% so I will continue to focus on the more important issue of bodily autonomy and parental choice and not just do as I’m told!

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megustalacerveza · 08/12/2021 12:58

@hygtt

behaving sensibly.

What does that mean?

Using a bit of bloody common sense. Not packing onto a rush hour train and then sitting in unventilated office all day if you could have stayed at home to work. Not sitting maskless on a train. Not getting up and closing windows others have opened on the bus because 'wah wah wah it's a bit cold'. Things that are incredibly minor inconveniences but make a difference to covid spread.

You know....acting like an actual grown up and understanding that a respiratory virus isn't going to vanish because you want it to.
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