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Covid

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Some perspective…

61 replies

Awakened22 · 03/12/2021 19:46

I feel like we need some perspective of what’s going on at the moment.

All data from the Office for National Statistics Covid website.

Cases have risen 1% in the last week….but the number of tests has also risen by 5%. Generally the more we test the more cases we’ll find.

The number of daily hospital admissions dropped over the course of November to 6.49 per 100,000 people. For context this was 15.6 per 100,000 at the end of November 2020.

It is the elderly driving hospital admissions and not the young. Under 24’s are being admitted at a rate of 1.96 per 100,000 and over 75’s 48.92 per 100,000. The rate for over 75’s has reduced by about 55% since February. There’s also virtually zero patients in hospital with “normal” flu.

Deaths with Covid have dropped by 5% in the last week.

Vaccinating the elderly, vulnerable and those with underlying health conditions has absolutely been successful in reducing the chance of them becoming seriously ill and dying. Lockdown’s protected them before the vaccine and the vaccines and boosters are protecting them now.

Trying to vaccinate the entire country and the world will not stop Covid. The vaccines are not sterilizing - they do not prevent infection and transmission. They may help to reduce it but their primary function is to prevent those at higher risk becoming seriously ill. There has never been a vaccine for a respiratory virus that prevents infection (please let me know if I’ve missed any!).

Coronavirus’ mutate rapidly. Given there is no way the earth’s population can all be successfully vaccinated at the same time - by the time we finish, the vaccines efficacy will have reduced in those we started with -
there will be variants, there will be mutations and we will continue to have cases. And that’s before we worry about trying to vaccinate animals as they also carry the virus. What we can hope for is that it will mutate into the equivalent of the common cold.

Given we have a vaccine to protect the vulnerable, vaccination should be about personal risk and benefit. As a 34 year old with no underlying health conditions and a healthy BMI, my chance of catching and dying of covid is 0.0001% (QCovid Risk Calculator). Based on MHRA yellow card data (and yes, I know there’s arguments about the accuracy but that’s the only data source I know of), the possibility of an adverse reaction is somewhere between 0.2-0.9% and possibility of dying 0.001% - ten times higher than my chance of dying from Covid. Now if we took smallpox (we can’t have a covid thread without mentioning it), my chance of dying from catching it would be about 30% and the chance of dying from the vaccine 1%. With odds like that, no-one would need to talk about mandates or passports.

So what do I think we should do? Be grateful that we have a vaccine which people are able to make a personal decision on whether to take and which significantly reduces the chance of serious illness and death for the vulnerable and high risk. Be grateful that the virus poses very little threat to the young and healthy. Rather than trying to out vaccinate a respiratory virus, which will continue to mutate, use our doctors and nurses time/resources to have face to face appointments to ensure people with health conditions are getting diagnosed, the right treatments and the right support. Prioritise vaccines globally for those who are at higher risk before we worry about our young and healthy. Do everything we can to lead a healthy lifestyle - lose weight, get outside in the fresh air, exercise, eat well. This will help the NHS both short term and long term.

Finally, debate is good and science wouldn’t be science without challenge or scrutiny. Division and name calling because someone has a different opinion, is vaccine hesitant or has a different perception of risk is unnecessary . Let’s focus on love, hope and what we can be grateful for.

OP posts:
Bobholll · 03/12/2021 19:55

People have lost the plot. It’s like we are back in March 2020 when we knew nothing of covid. People are acting like we’ll all drop dead from omicron. It’s baffling. It is not the dominant strain yet & it’ll take a while to be so. We don’t know anything about it yet, data SA is very hard to compare to the UK given the vaccination levels, general poverty and high prevalence of HIV.

Vaccines almost certainly will do something. We will never out vaccinate this virus. We have to live with it. And not fear it’s every move. Comments oh ‘children are sitting ducks’ .. of what, a illness milder than a cold in most kids? Get a grip. Stop panicking.

Precautions are fine. Masks, fine. Hand washing, fine. Vaccines, essential. Life goes on. Might help to fund the NHS to be fair but we are stuck with the Tories so no hope there.

Bobholll · 03/12/2021 19:56

*oh also, not only vaccines but we have some fantastic treatments coming through. Pfizer’s looks very good. Will hopefully save thousands of lives.

Awakened22 · 03/12/2021 20:02

@Bobholll exactly! And you used fewer words then me Wink it makes me sad and angry the level of fear, rather than sense, the media and government has instilled in people.

OP posts:
Babdoc · 03/12/2021 20:03

It is true that the young and fit are unlikely to die of Covid.
But they are still at risk of developing life changing Long Covid. The country will struggle to cope with potentially hundreds of thousands of people on long term disability benefits and unable to work.
I would still urge people of all ages to take the vaccine and use sensible precautions to minimise infection risk. I am still very limited by breathlessness and fatigue after 20 months of Long Covid.

Greentomatoes21 · 03/12/2021 20:06

Thank you for this. I entirely agree with your perspective and appreciate the stats. Nice to have a non-panicky thread.

perfectSmiles3 · 03/12/2021 21:13

@Awakened22
a breath of fresh air you are👍

Delatron · 03/12/2021 21:30

I agree a sense of perspective is lacking at the moment. The media don’t help.

I just don’t know what more we can do. We have mostly all had two very good vaccines. Most adults are about to get a booster.

I’m looking forward to the time we actually stop testing healthy, asymptomatic people. Though there are many that simply can’t get their heads around that.

The fear is so disproportionate. I don’t blame people really. The government had to scare people to get them to comply with lockdowns. Now, 3 vaccines later they can’t undo that fear.

Confuseddotcom12345 · 03/12/2021 21:33

Totally agree with you OP

JS87 · 03/12/2021 21:35

You are comparing the likelihood of dying from covid versus the likelihood of adverse events from the vaccine whilst ignoring the fact that the likelihood of adverse events from covid are higher than from the vaccine, regardless of your age. Yes the vaccines do cause some adverse events but risk from covid isn’t just about dying versus not dying.

lljkk · 03/12/2021 21:40

Problem is that if old people (age 80+) get covid, they are still high risk to be very harmed by it, even after vaccination. Original covid, Alpha, Delta, Omicron -- probably all equally low risk to the relatively young.

Any covid is still bad for oldies. Vaccinations aren't a cure for that.

Awakened22 · 03/12/2021 21:51

@JS87 - fair point. I’d skipped over the adverse effects from Covid as I had it in March 2020 and wouldn’t have thought it was anything more than a cold if I hadn’t lost my smell and taste for a few days which was really weird.

My view on the risk of Covid vs vaccine for me personally will be different to that of someone who’s either not had Covid so won’t know if they’ll have adverse effect from it or had it and suffered.

OP posts:
Ecina · 03/12/2021 21:52

Thank you for putting your head above the parapet. It's really appreciated, certainly by me and I'm sure by many who occasionally venture on here and then escape again shaking their heads at the level of (and yes I do know what I'm saying is unacceptable to many but it needs to be aired) madness. You are absolutely right, and very reasonable and measured with it. Unfortunately, people have lost all reason.
Thank you again and best wishes to you - it's a hard time to be sensible and sane 😊.

secretllama · 03/12/2021 22:00

@Delatron

I agree a sense of perspective is lacking at the moment. The media don’t help.

I just don’t know what more we can do. We have mostly all had two very good vaccines. Most adults are about to get a booster.

I’m looking forward to the time we actually stop testing healthy, asymptomatic people. Though there are many that simply can’t get their heads around that.

The fear is so disproportionate. I don’t blame people really. The government had to scare people to get them to comply with lockdowns. Now, 3 vaccines later they can’t undo that fear.

I agree with every word of this!
Awakened22 · 03/12/2021 22:00

Thank you @Ecina - that Friday glass of wine helped Wine

OP posts:
6Pounds50 · 03/12/2021 22:03

@lljkk

Problem is that if old people (age 80+) get covid, they are still high risk to be very harmed by it, even after vaccination. Original covid, Alpha, Delta, Omicron -- probably all equally low risk to the relatively young.

Any covid is still bad for oldies. Vaccinations aren't a cure for that.

This is just life, older people are at risk of complications from any virus. It’s actually not a “problem” it’s life.

We have all done what we needed/need to do to be able to live with this virus. Majority of the population in the U.K. have had the vaccine, majority do wear masks when needed. And that is all we can do.

The mass hysteria/divide on the issue needs to stop now.

Thankyou OP for this thread. I’m hoping most people have your view on things and MN is just warped.

BonnyBoy · 03/12/2021 22:04

'Children are sitting ducks'

Yes the illness might be mild but they still have to isolate for 10days which I think is really harmful for their mental health (&probably their parents too)

Most of us will probably end up getting it at some point. Should we let children get back to normal and return to school when well?

nordica · 03/12/2021 22:05

It's not about the risk of dying but about the risk of needing hospital treatment and how that affects the health service as a whole. If you have lots of cases, then there will be a significant number of people still needing hospital treatment, and that leads to other cancelled treatments and operations, longer waiting times and so on... The point has never been to protect any individual person but to ensure the NHS still has the resources to treat any of us at any time we may need it (for non-covid things).

Awakened22 · 03/12/2021 22:05

@lljkk what are your thoughts on how we manage this? It’s not just Covid that is bad for oldies…sadly for a lot of elderly people it’s often one more thing which is too much for their bodies to cope with whether that’s Covid, flu, a UTI or a fall. If we cure Covid, we’ll likely see flu deaths in the elderly rise back to their pre-Covid levels.

OP posts:
6Pounds50 · 03/12/2021 22:10

@nordica

It's not about the risk of dying but about the risk of needing hospital treatment and how that affects the health service as a whole. If you have lots of cases, then there will be a significant number of people still needing hospital treatment, and that leads to other cancelled treatments and operations, longer waiting times and so on... The point has never been to protect any individual person but to ensure the NHS still has the resources to treat any of us at any time we may need it (for non-covid things).
But this has been the case all along, surely all this means is that the NHS needs prioritising, this is no longer a new virus and it’s one we will have to live with forever, and unfortunately will continue to make people poorly enough to need hospital beds.
QueenofKattegat · 03/12/2021 22:15

I completely agree. I'm just looking around me in horror and wondering why are people getting so hysterical again.

Awakened22 · 03/12/2021 22:19

@nordica about 5% of nhs beds are currently filled with patients with covid (I haven’t been able to find any split on how many are in because of Covid vs in for something else and have covid). About 25% of those 5% caught covid in hospital (I can try and find the links again tomorrow but it’s all NHS/ONS data).

The NHS is horrifically underfunded and poorly managed - all of the frontline staff do an amazing job ever day in stopping it failing completely. Every winter for as long as I can remember there’s been headlines about wards being at capacity, unable to cope with flu, black alerts and cancelled operations. Covid is a convenient excuse for the government…in my opinion Smile

OP posts:
Meshabubu · 03/12/2021 22:27

@JS87

You are comparing the likelihood of dying from covid versus the likelihood of adverse events from the vaccine whilst ignoring the fact that the likelihood of adverse events from covid are higher than from the vaccine, regardless of your age. Yes the vaccines do cause some adverse events but risk from covid isn’t just about dying versus not dying.
"the likelihood of adverse events from covid are higher than from the vaccine"

I'm really not convinced that's at all true. post viral fatigue is nothing new, and while it is very real, it is not so widespread that there will be huge swathes of the country unable to move or do anything; as has been implied in some circles. People sometimes attack the Yellow Card scheme of vaccine adverse events as inaccurate, usually without the slightest bit of evidence to back that statement up. This is the system used by vaccine centres who themselves promote it, and the majority of reports are made by healthcare professionals.
As the use of mRNA is totally new technology in humans, as even the amazing and unbiased BBC have stated -- surely a key component of the MHRA's job is closely monitoring it?
if not, can somebody explain, if not the MHRA, precisely who is?

back on the topic of post viral fatigue - as someone who has worked in the NHS, I can assure you that a good diet, and ensuring you have a more than ample supply of vitamins and nutrients can often combat this effectively, and bring good results in a relatively short period of time. You may or may not get this advice from your health practitioner, in total fairness while there are many good people in the NHS, there are some also, who let's face it - have a serious predisposition to prescribing quite serious numbers of pills and remedies, some of which may work, many of which simply seek to address the symptoms rather than the underlying root cause.

For the absolute overwhelming majority, covid is an exceptionally mild illness. The reason you all know this is twofold:

a) The Shipman rules for safeguarding, regarding the classifying of deaths, were torn up last year. So a 'covid death' is counted as someone who has tested +ve with a PCR test in the last 28 days. However a person who tests +ve with said PCR test is informed that they are required to stay home for 10 days, no longer. ergo the death stats are at best, seriously inflated.

b) Ask anyone you know who works at a test centre, or even apply for a job in one.. these people do not have to isolate at all, despite coming into almost daily contact with people who test +ve. Don't you think that is a little off, no?
Well no. because the PCR test is for DNA sequence (hence the swab) it is NOT a determination of whether you are infectious.

InCahootswithOrwell · 03/12/2021 22:31

I’m fairly certain that your vaccine risk vs benefit stats are wrong. Not least because experts all over the world have been looking at this in order to approve vaccines and decide on vaccination programmes. Even the JCVI who went out on their own and initially decided not to vaccinate 12-15 year olds did so while admiring that the risks of getting covid amongst that age group was higher than the risks associated with the vaccine.

It is highly unlikely that the risk:benefit calculation for a 34 is in favour of not getting covid, particularly in the U.K. where the rate of Covid infection has been astronomical for months and your chances of getting covid are high. In another country it might be different but still unlikely to be in favour of not vaccinating if you want to open up.

julieca · 03/12/2021 22:33

Currently, I have a friend going through the cancer pathway for treatment, my colleague has cancer and is being treated, my DP is waiting for some orthopaedic surgery.
If this variant means there is a lot more people in the hospital, the treatment of all three of these people, and lots of others could be affected. Treatments were affected last winter. A friend of a friend had her cancer treatment delayed because our hospital could not cope with the number of coronavirus admissions. I had hoped that would not happen again this winter. Now I am worried it will.

screwcovid · 03/12/2021 22:39

@Bobholll

People have lost the plot. It’s like we are back in March 2020 when we knew nothing of covid. People are acting like we’ll all drop dead from omicron. It’s baffling. It is not the dominant strain yet & it’ll take a while to be so. We don’t know anything about it yet, data SA is very hard to compare to the UK given the vaccination levels, general poverty and high prevalence of HIV.

Vaccines almost certainly will do something. We will never out vaccinate this virus. We have to live with it. And not fear it’s every move. Comments oh ‘children are sitting ducks’ .. of what, a illness milder than a cold in most kids? Get a grip. Stop panicking.

Precautions are fine. Masks, fine. Hand washing, fine. Vaccines, essential. Life goes on. Might help to fund the NHS to be fair but we are stuck with the Tories so no hope there.

Totally agree my mevtal health is really bad now cause off all this shit
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