Annoyed that schools weren’t mentioned once in the press conference

[OnceuponaRainbow18]

So masks back in shops and on public transport, where most people are double jabbed and can distance, yet not in secondary schools where majority unvaccinated and unable to distance at all. But don’t fear we can open a window.

@borntobequiet

It didnt in Scotland...

There’s no way to show this. The situation could have been even worse without masks.

I've already addressed this logic on this thread. We're supposedly wearing masks to stop it spreading - it's still spreading. So, it cannot possibly be claimed they work. Notwithstanding the fact that English schools haven't largely had masks thus far in this academic year and have literally done absolutely no worse. At times, it's been better than rates in Scotland.

The school guidance is there for reason and it’s to stop schools making up their own rules and causing more disparity between schools and more inequality

Eg my school does not contact contacts at all. As such my kids have never been asked to have a contact Opcr so haven’t missed a day

Yet we have a pp who’s child is at 80% - that’s inequality caused by that school making up rules that government have said they are not to do

It’s track and trace role to contact kids

That school is causing some children to miss days that others are not missing

So, it cannot possibly be claimed they work.

Not so. Evidence shows that masks reduce transmission and may protect the wearer. Mask wearing is only one of a number of measures to mitigate spread. The measures work together. However, where other measures are poorly designed, insufficient, not enforced or absent, and circumstances are such that infection can spread, the efficacy of masks will be reduced. But you can’t simply say they don’t work.

@borntobequiet

So, it cannot possibly be claimed they work.

Not so. Evidence shows that masks reduce transmission and may protect the wearer. Mask wearing is only one of a number of measures to mitigate spread. The measures work together. However, where other measures are poorly designed, insufficient, not enforced or absent, and circumstances are such that infection can spread, the efficacy of masks will be reduced. But you can’t simply say they don’t work.

I think the fact that Scotland has continued with masks and been one of the worst infected areas in Europe on multiple occasions pretty much confirms they do not work. It's absolutely no science whatsoever to say "well it MIGHT have been worse without them", you might as well pluck numbers out of thin air.

It's absolutely no science whatsoever to say "well it MIGHT have been worse without them"

It’s not science, it’s logic…
There’s good scientific evidence that masks work. They may not work as well as they should because of other factors.
You may as well say (as some do) that vaccination “doesn’t work” because some vaccinated people become infected. But vaccination reduces infections, hospitalisations and deaths, it’s just not 100% effective - as sensible people very well know.

There’s good scientific evidence that masks work.

There is limited evidence that hospital grade masks reduce infection when used in hospital in accordance with strict infection control procedures (including putting on a new mask everyone you take it off, several times a day)

There is not good evidence that fabric face coverings worn by school children work. However there is evidence that they can increase infection through cross contamination. It is therefore telling that one reason the Scottish Government gave for face coverings in school was that in might increase compliance with mask wearing and other measures by adults in the community.

@borntobequiet

It's absolutely no science whatsoever to say "well it MIGHT have been worse without them"

It’s not science, it’s logic…
There’s good scientific evidence that masks work. They may not work as well as they should because of other factors.
You may as well say (as some do) that vaccination “doesn’t work” because some vaccinated people become infected. But vaccination reduces infections, hospitalisations and deaths, it’s just not 100% effective - as sensible people very well know.

If it's logic then why hasn't it come true then?? Why hasn't England done worse than Scotland since removing masks? If it could all be so much more worse without masks then.... why isn't it?!

@borntobequiet I linked already to a study but will provide the extract again below....

Previous literature reviews have identified mask wearing as an effective measure for the containment of SARS-CoV-2104; the caveat being that more high level evidence is required to provide unequivocal support for the effectiveness of the universal use of face masks.105106 Additional empirical evidence from a recent randomised controlled trial (originally published as a preprint) indicates that mask wearing achieved a 9.3% reduction in seroprevalence of symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and an 11.9% reduction in the prevalence of covid-19-like symptoms.107 Another systematic review showed stronger effectiveness with the use of N95, or similar, respirators than disposable surgical masks,108 and a study evaluating the protection offered by 18 different types of fabric masks found substantial heterogeneity in protection, with the most effective mask being multilayered and tight fitting.109 However, transmission of SARS-CoV-2 largely arises in hospital settings in which full personal protective measures are in place, which suggests that when viral load is at its highest, even the best performing face masks might not provide adequate protection.51 Additionally, most studies that assessed mask wearing were prone to important confounding bias, which might have altered the conclusions drawn from this review (ie, effect estimates might have been underestimated or overestimated or can be related to other measures that were in place at the time the studies were conducted). Thus, the extent of such limitations on the conclusions drawn remain unknown.

Basically if viral load is high (which going by teacher friends with CO2 monitors in their poorly ventilated classrooms is often the case with levels greater then 1500ppm) then actually as the study summarises from hospitals with far greater PPE than scottish schools actually little protection is offered.
Hence probably why in Scotland they haven't made a difference as less then a N95/FFP2 does not stop you breathing in the virus and the viral load now required is less.

Masks are known to work that's why the sensible countries in Asia with experience of coronavirus pandemics wear them with massive compliance. It's only our stupid British exceptionalism that means we think we know better. And I mean proper ones not those ineffective made at home masks.

We have a case-control retrospective cohort study that shows masks in schools did not reduce infection.

@Mouseonmychair

Masks are known to work that's why the sensible countries in Asia with experience of coronavirus pandemics wear them with massive compliance. It's only our stupid British exceptionalism that means we think we know better. And I mean proper ones not those ineffective made at home masks.

Confounding

@Watapalava

The school guidance is there for reason and it’s to stop schools making up their own rules and causing more disparity between schools and more inequality

Eg my school does not contact contacts at all. As such my kids have never been asked to have a contact Opcr so haven’t missed a day

Yet we have a pp who’s child is at 80% - that’s inequality caused by that school making up rules that government have said they are not to do

It’s track and trace role to contact kids

That school is causing some children to miss days that others are not missing

It’s guidance ie not obligatory. There’s a big difference between guidance and policy!

If it's logic then why hasn't it come true then??

It’s logic to say it might be worse without them, because it might - we just have no evidence. There are far too many confounding factors. Masks might indeed be useless (though much evidence suggests otherwise) but we can’t definitively say so, which was what I was objecting to.
It seems sensible that a combination of distancing where possible, good hygiene, good ventilation and appropriate mask wearing should reduce infections. None of these are particularly onerous or expensive and I’m puzzled as to why so many people think them unacceptable.

It’s obligatory in sense that schools have to have strict reasons to deviate from it
And can only make additional measures for a short time

Not blanket policies

Some schools are just crap - in my kids school contacts in were only ever went home - not once was a whole class never mind a whole year sent home and da is year 10 with 10 different subjects

Should say contacts within 2m were only the ones sent home from day 1

The trick would seem to be to try to reduce the viral load in schools if it overwhelms masks, but we don’t see much of that happening. The school vaccination programme seems to have stuttered to a halt.

My local M&S had a couple of portable air purifiers going when I went in recently. One wonders why there’s not one in every classroom - surely a missed entrepreneurial opportunity for Tory chums.

Have air purifiers actually been shown to work?

As for guidance, isn't it funny how guidance to schools, even statutory guidance, seems so optional when it comes to support for kids with SEN?

@Lovelyricepudding

We have a case-control retrospective cohort study that shows masks in schools did not reduce infection.

Please post.

news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-boris-johnson-orders-return-of-face-masks-and-self-isolation-for-some-as-australia-detects-first-cases-of-omicron-variant-12469075

I don't think secondary aged children will follow rules anymore. They have been impacted and suffered more than anyone. They see the stupidity of the rules (not needing to isolate if a member of their household has it, or a class mate) They are not really at risk and they don't care.
Primary schools have stupid bubbles and rules, which ignores siblings, head teachers popping between classes etc.

I just think we have to get on with it now. If you are a teacher at risk buy a proper mask, open your windows and have rules about your class moving around.

Two years of this is enough, and I say that as someone who has totally followed all of the rules. Mental health is more important now.

We have co2 monitors in our classrooms. If windows are closed it goes red. It’s flippin freezing.

@Benjispruce5, mine are wearing fleece lined tights! Primark.😁

I don't think secondary aged children will follow rules anymore. They have been impacted and suffered more than anyone. They see the stupidity of the rules (not needing to isolate if a member of their household has it, or a class mate) They are not really at risk and they don't care.

Not what I saw today. In an 1800+ school, majority already came to school ready to wear masks in the corridors and communal areas, so had clearly been listening this weekend and were fine to do so.
Many of our Sixth Formers are currently attending their second Covid jab appointments.
A lot really do care.

I just think we have to get on with it now. If you are a teacher at risk buy a proper mask, open your windows and have rules about your class moving around.

I am a primary teacher.

I am not allowed to wear any mask in the classroom or at any time when with children, so whether the mask-I-don't-wear is 'proper' or not is essentially irrelevant.

My children do not move around - they and I spend 6 hours a day together in a single room, in which it is not possible for them all to sit and work without physically touching their neighbours. We also eat in there.

I do open my windows. Maximum temperature in my room was 16 degrees at the warmest time of the day, and even then the CO2 monitor went red....

@cantkeepawayforever we are allowed to wear masks but it’s so hard to talk at an audible volume to a class with a mask on. I end up with a strained voice.