Am I missing something?

[debbs77]

I'm in no way anti-vaccine, and myself and my children are all up to date with routine vaccines.

But I don't understand why people are being given ultimatums, ie possibly losing their job. For a vaccine that was never able to eradicate covid. But lessen the symptoms for the individual.

How can they prove that a vaccinated person spreads it less than an unvaccinated one? Plus, either way they can still spread it!

And as for teens, the actual government website says that the benefit to teens of the jab are only marginally better than if they just caught covid anyway!

So why let everyone bin the masks and mingle at concerts etc, but cause issues for unvaccinated people???

Exactly @ktel1 no matter what evidence there is to the contrary people bury their heads in the sand and shout down others
Look at the Ireland figures for instance , the levels of death and infections today compared to this time last year. What’s the reasons for that?

And Gibraltar , the most vaccinated place in the world having to lock down. Is this because vaccines work so well?

@Nerdygirl

Exactly *@ktel1* no matter what evidence there is to the contrary people bury their heads in the sand and shout down others Look at the Ireland figures for instance , the levels of death and infections today compared to this time last year. What’s the reasons for that?

Delta - think it has been explained a couple of times.

A variant which causes a far higher viral load (something like "x278" fold quoted in one paper) and far greater ability to transmit is always going increases rates & deaths despite suppression measures.

@ktel1

As predicted posters claiming to be better researched ,intellectually superior and claiming that any dissenters haven't done any research or don't understand .

I don't see that.

It's more that there seems to be a kneejerk reaction that if you don't understand something or it doesn't make sense, instead of assuming that might be because you're not a expert in the area, it's that everyone else is wrong.

For example:
How can they prove that a vaccinated person spreads it less than an unvaccinated one? Plus, either way they can still spread it!

Agree with comments on governents nonsensical policies

@BIWI your google search produced a media report of a preprint (not peer reviewed) that showed the risk of transissions is not much reduced by vaccination. Recently the guardian printed a very misleading interpretation of the BMJ study on masks. “Experts” by the way, agree the guardian article was misleading. The media all have a narrative and it’s important to try and follow up on evidence and listen to differing viewpoints. I understand this is uncomfortable for some people but it’s important stuff.

You're still missing the point. The point is that it's very easy to find plenty of information - as scientific as you like - by Googling. Rather than posting to a load of randoms on Mumsnet (or Facebook).

Google produces one viewpoint (remember the algorithm shows what it’s creators want it to). Mumsnet posters may suggest others. If you want to look at peer reviewed research much of it is open access but I would suggest reading the actual paper rather than a media headline as these can be misleading.

It's a bit unfair to say it was a media headline though. It was an article in The New Scientists, with links to specific points/facts that were made.

Why are people so rude?????

@Nerdygirl

And Gibraltar , the most vaccinated place in the world having to lock down. Is this because vaccines work so well?

You really can't compare Gibraltar as a proof of vaccine working/not working. The vaccinated % for Gibraltar is 121%, because they include commuting Spanish people. Someone on the other place said % is number of vaccination against number of population. So, it really doesn't tell you much, if the data says more than 100%, for sure.

So @rainrainraincamedowndowndown are you saying everyone that lives in Gibraltar isn’t vaccinated ? The additional numbers may be visitors but they still have a high uptake . Why are you looking for reasons for this not to be true

I have just come back from a trip to one of the highest vaccinated countries where everyone has to be vaccinated to go, has to have pre departure tests and show their covid passport .

And guess what I have come back with covid AND been pinged as a close contact on the plane of someone else who has covid . So what is the point of covid passports ? And treating vaccinated differently

@SGChome20

The only vaccine that has successfully eradicated a disease is polio.

If we let everyone do as you suggest it’s likely the NHS would be overwhelmed.

We can prove the vaccine reduces severity and likelihood of passing covid on because of science.

Smallpox, not polio (although that is a realistic goal).

JadeandGreen

MrsSkylerWhite
Yea, the people who choose to be vaccinated! So if you're unvaccinated and willing to take that risk then that is your right!

Nice try.“

JadeandGreen

If you are willing to “take that risk”, contract Covid and require hospitalisation, would that change your mind? Would you take vaccination thereafter?
I'm double vaccinated. My children received all their childhood vaccinations. I'm not anti-vax, which people seem to immediately assume if you support others right to choose what goes in their bodies. I just feel this division in society is running out of control due to politicians who do not give a damn about any of us and if for whatever reason people do not feel comfortable getting this particular vaccination then that is their right“

That’s a really interesting answer. Yes, I made assumptions about you. Apologies.

Why do you feel the huge effort to vaccinate the population is driven by politicians rather than by scientists?

I have an averagely (I suspect) poor opinion of politicians but the greatest respect for science and scientists. Self-serving though I believe the majority of senior politicians are, I also know that they are far from stupid and they have been driven by science for the past 18 months. Simply because it was in their overwhelming interests to
be so.

Why do you think otherwise?

@Whyamistilltired

Oh god not yet another one of these threads! They are daily now argh

Snap thoughts

For those saying "not another one of these threads"....simple...don't read it!

Then maybe you should make it clear on the title that this is another one of those threads, otherwise how would people know what's this thread is about before reading?

@debbs77

I totally get that but the vaccine doesn't stop a person spreading it

It makes them less likely to spread it.

@TulipsGarden

1. Vaccination reduces the likelihood of you spreading it, as it reduces the viral load. There is data to prove this.

1. People being mandated to get the vaccine are in contact with very vulnerable people. I would be horrified if I found out one of my 99 year old nan's carers was unvaccinated - why wouldn't you want to protect those you care for as much as possible?

1. The more people left unvaccinated, the more risk to the NHS and ultimately, society as a whole. They have to do something to increase vaccination rates because at the moment far too many people are still unvaccinated and are costing too much money to make better/before they die.

1. Teens are at risk from Covid, it can be a serious illness and they can get long Covid from it. There have been threads on here of people whose teens have really suffered. Teens also socialise more than the rest of the population, so are more likely to spread it.

Vaccine passports - which I'm sure you're also against - work by restricting the movement of unvaccinated people. The fewer unvaccinated people who get Covid, the better for everyone. If someone can't go to shops/bars/concerts because they're unvaccinated, they're slightly less likely to catch it. They are also less likely to cause a superspreader event, which they are more likely to do as an unvaccinated person because they spread it more than vaccinated.

This. Just read this a few times op.

@ollyollyoxenfree

they don't do their own research

@debbs77

You see this bandied about all over the place. It is impossible to "do your own research" as an individual, in the same way a team of scientists with expertise in the area will. Why people think they can disregard this, in the face of a quick google I'll never know.

I'm reasonably qualified but if I wanted to know about something I don't specifically work in, I ask collegaues or rely on conclusions drawn by teams of scientists that have been working in the area for decades.

And this!! 💯

@DismantledKing

I'd just rather read for myself than be swept along by others because they don't do their own research

Lord save us from Facebook epidemiologists

😹

I'm gobsmacked by the bitching. Do people talk like this in real life?

@debbs77

I'm gobsmacked by the bitching. Do people talk like this in real life?

I think there's a lot of fatigue with threads like this but apologies if you're genuinely looking for info and there hasn't been a lot of help.

This "Known Unknowns" seminar series is good - collaboration between the BMJ and the University of Bristol. Qualified people, who genuinely have expertise, discuss lots of different aspects of COVID.

They are very much middle of the road in terms of "let it rip" verus "zero COVID."

www.bristol.ac.uk/integrative-epidemiology/outputs/known-unknowns/

And the editorial:

The more certain someone is about covid-19, the less you should trust them

www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3979