Lockdown in Austria/Germany

[Daisy829]

So I’ve seen on the news that unvaccinated people are being told to lock down again in Austria and Germany may follow. It got me thinking……if they have to wfh are they allowed to leave the house to take the children to school or childcare? Not sure why they are locking down. Presume to encourage people to get vaccinated & protect healthcare?

Personally I am vaccinated but appreciate peoples right to choose so I’m not sure how fair this strategy is really.

Theres a whole other thread on this exact subject a few days ago. Take a peek into the dark abyss that is antivax/ reflexive contrarianism if you dare!

Ah thanks I’ll have a look. I did scroll through but didn’t see it. I’m not wanting to cause controversy but I’m just interested. It’s a brave strategy.

YouGov posted a very brief summary of the rules in order to canvas opinions on it:

It's crazy and the EU say nothing about it, but they do hammer Hungary and Poland for far lesser evils.

Here's a little excerpt from the European Convention on Human Rights.

ARTICLE 5
Right to liberty and security

1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No

one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law.

ARTICLE 7
No punishment without law

1. No one shall be held guilty of any criminal offence on

account of any act or omission which did not constitute a criminal offence under national or international law at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the criminal offence was committed.

ARTICLE 11
Freedom of assembly and association

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and

to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

ARTICLE 14
Prohibition of discrimination
The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this

Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground
such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other

opinion, national or social origin, association with a national

minority, property, birth or other status.

I read a report a while back that has said heavier vaccine shedding was more likely in older and fatter people. Same groups tend to have lower vaccine response. As I'm older and getting fatter you can probably guess I'm not liking the direction this might go in!

I think persuasion to vaccinate needs to be doubled down on: Public health should meet people where they are and get both listening and talking to them.

The exceptions mentioned in article 5 there explicitly include preventing spread of infectious diseases

And they are simply saying that the spread only matters amongst the unvaccinated , so no need to lock down everyone

The government have a bit of a dilemma...

They have to convince the unvaccinated that the jab does work at the same time as convincing the vaccinated it doesn't work so they get the boosters...

How are they even policing this in Austria?

It's policed by checking you are vaccinated or have a "recovered" certificate when you try to enter anywhere like a restaurant.

I found the other thread (didn’t read it all as it was v long) and it sounds like it’s really strict in Austria and people have to carry id at all times.

@MartyHart

It's policed by checking you are vaccinated or have a "recovered" certificate when you try to enter anywhere like a restaurant.

But that is going into leisure places, how is all the general going out and about being policed, not going into places but leaving your home and for example visiting friends.

Are there probably many more police than we have, we haven't even got a police station in our town of about 30k people

@PatientPatty

I read a report a while back that has said heavier vaccine shedding was more likely in older and fatter people. Same groups tend to have lower vaccine response. As I'm older and getting fatter you can probably guess I'm not liking the direction this might go in!

I think persuasion to vaccinate needs to be doubled down on: Public health should meet people where they are and get both listening and talking to them.

Vaccine shedding isn't a thing with any of the covid vaccines currently in use.

It's true that, as you get older, your response to vaccination reduces, simply because your immune system deteriorates with age. I'm not aware of any link with weight.

It’s quite a risk really, what if the numbers continue rising? What will they do then, admit defeat and lock everyone down?

@Woowoooooo

The government have a bit of a dilemma...

They have to convince the unvaccinated that the jab does work at the same time as convincing the vaccinated it doesn't work so they get the boosters...

Oh FFS 🤦‍♀️

@Thewiseoneincognito

It’s quite a risk really, what if the numbers continue rising? What will they do then, admit defeat and lock everyone down?

They will keep rising.

Just slower hopefully.

But if - like us - they don't have much in the way of mitigations to prevent covid spread in schools full of unvaccinated children then not much slower at all.

@Woowoooooo

The government have a bit of a dilemma...

They have to convince the unvaccinated that the jab does work at the same time as convincing the vaccinated it doesn't work so they get the boosters...

When you find out how often you have to have a flu vaccine it's going to blow your mind.

And flu is seasonal and only usually an issue during the colder months. We're living with covid year round.

@covetingthepreciousthings

How are they even policing this in Austria?

It's a vaccine pass system. Lots of countries have them.

@Woowoooooo

The government have a bit of a dilemma...

They have to convince the unvaccinated that the jab does work at the same time as convincing the vaccinated it doesn't work so they get the boosters...

There is some waning of the (potentially life-saving) good effect so you need a booster.

I'd hope people can understand that without I being oo much of a dilemma.

it and too

@Woowoooooo

The government have a bit of a dilemma...

They have to convince the unvaccinated that the jab does work at the same time as convincing the vaccinated it doesn't work so they get the boosters...

With this level of stupidity, what chance is there for humanity.

@Thewiseoneincognito

It’s quite a risk really, what if the numbers continue rising? What will they do then, admit defeat and lock everyone down?

I'm in Austria and yes, that is by far the most likely outcome. The media are starting to drop soft hints on that and most people would prefer a full lockdown than constant drip-feeding and half-hearted measures.

The whole "lockdown for unvaccinated" is actually far less draconian than it sounds. Austria has had a vaccine passport system for the entire summer where being vaccinated, recovered or recently tested gives you a green pass to be unmasked in restaurants, events, gyms etc. The only extra thing now are police doing random spot checks in shopping centres to see if unvaccinated people are visiting non-essential shops or sitting down unmasked in restaurants. However the frequency is so rare that it's similar to getting caught by a ticket inspector on public transport.

Public life feels virtually identical to what it was before. The vast majority of non-essential shops do not check each shopper (which would be ridiculous and time-consuming). Restaurants are probably losing a small amount of business, however unvaccinated are allowed take-out service.

The numbers are rising because a significant number of people were vaccinated over 6 months ago, many with AZ, and that is proven to lose efficacy after 4 months or so. In the absence of a total lockdown, there's still a lot of social mixing and face-to-face work and school environments. So that's fuelling a combined rate of infection between unvaccinated people and those whose vaccines are losing efficacy.

The numbers have reached a critical mass that half measures are unlikely to be effective anymore. Even if everyone got vaccinated today, it would still take the second dose and 3 more weeks before people have immunity. Several hospitals have already reached full capacity/breaking point so the government is most likely going to announce a full lockdown within 2 weeks.

Where did you read about a lockdown for unvaccinated people in Germany? Because I'm in Germany and it's certainly not happening here right now. In certain states you can only access non-necessary events and venues if you can prove you're vaxxed or recovered, but that's the case in other EU countries too (France and Italy?). There are no restrictions on anyone going out, or meeting with friends, and everyone - vaccinated or not - has to wear a medical mask in shops, doctors, public transport etc. The situation is changing all the time though.
And the drastic policy in Austria seems to be working to some extent, judging from the queues at vax centres today. I wouldn't have voted for it myself, but I can see the rationale behind it.

It got me thinking……if they have to wfh are they allowed to leave the house to take the children to school or childcare?

And to answer this, unvaccinated people are still allowed to go to work with a negative test. There is no mandatory wfh or furlough scheme in place so unvaccinated people can take their kids to school and collect them just like before. Schools are still open so nothing changes there.

@CupcakeTowers thanks for the info. So are unvaccinated people having to do regular lateral flows to enable them to go out to work?

@RuleOfCat it was just a headline saying Germany might follow but there’s so much media hype it’s difficult to know what to believe. There wasn’t much useful content in the article itself which is why I was asking on here.