Lockdown for the unvaccinated - or a full lockdown for everybody?

[PrincessNutNuts]

Which would you choose?

What would be the point in an uninforcable lockdown for the unvaccinated? If it was tried, I'd expect it to be ignored and have little effect and be challenged pretty quickly by the courts (and be found to be unlawful for some reason).

Another lockdown for everyone? I suspect that too wouldnt be workable and enforceable easily at this stage, just because of how many would outright ignore it.

Consent is only consent if coercion is not involved....

@HalfShrunkMoreToGo

I think there should be sensible mitigations in place but am against the idea of lockdowns.

I went into the office for the first time in months last week for a meeting. One of the other people there had a spouse who tested positive a couple of days earlier, they tested negative. As a double vaccinated person they were able to travel cross country on a train with no mask on, attend several days of face to face meetings with no mask, a conference with thousands of people with no mask and stay in a couple of hotels. Unsurprisingly they tested positive over the weekend, now everyone at the work meetings, sitting near them in the train and all the people they were in meetings with at work have been in close contact.

Masks indoors and social distancing would have been easy and sensible ways to reduce risk of transmission.

Same.

I'm not particularly wedded to specific NPIs , but countries need to implement a bunch of them that are effective enough to keep cases low.

And since covid is airborne, masks, ventilation, and HEPA filtration should probably be a priority.

Along with measures to reduce contacts such as working from home if you can.

And basic infection control such as finding cases, testing, tracing contacts and isolation of contacts.

Protecting the vulnerable would reduce deaths.

Perhaps the government should call them "Lockdown Prevention Measures"

@bumbleymummy
BTW, ~84% of people in critical care units with covid have a BMI over 25 making them overweight/obese. Out of curiosity, would you consider putting restrictions on overweight/obese people because their ‘selfish’ behaviour is ‘the reason for pressure on the health service’?

I remember a couple of people making this argument. They were talking about fat people being a drain on the NHS back in 2015 when "fat cards" were being handed out:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34969424

We know the vaccines aren't very effective in people with certain health conditions. Even vaccinated, they're an outsized proportion of covid deaths. Should they be subject to the same restrictions as the vaccinated? After all, the risk they pose to others is the same, and they put as much or more strain on the healthcare system.

Can somebody clarify which virus that has killed millions worldwide and ground the planet to a halt the fat people are spreading in this analogy?

Because otherwise it's a false equivalence isn't it?

@RedToothBrush

Consent is only consent if coercion is not involved....

Coercion is central to literally all government action.

Well it’s a false dilemma so it’s not a logical question. But segregation based on vaccination status is hugely problematic and I really hope I don’t need to explain why that is.
There simply isn’t enough conclusive evidence regarding the vaccine preventing spread of covid to go down this road at all. It really shouldn’t be anyone’s business if you’ve had a vaccine or otherwise, and people have the right not to be vaccinated.

@PrincessNutNuts

Can somebody clarify which virus that has killed millions worldwide and ground the planet to a halt the fat people are spreading in this analogy?

Because otherwise it's a false equivalence isn't it?

It really depends on the purpose of the lockdown. If it's to reduce strain on the NHS, then it should be targeted at those most likely to need hospital beds and critical care. Vaccination plays a role there, but it's not the only factor. You'd probably still be better off locking down vaccinated 80-year-olds than unvaccinated 20-year-olds. Including the obese in the lockdown group would make perfect sense, given their covid outcomes.

If the purpose is to reduce the total number of cases, then you'd need much more solid evidence of the vaccines reducing infection and transmission - not than just symptoms and deaths - before distinguishing between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated. The few real studies that have been done show that the currently-available vaccines do little to nothing in that regard.

Can somebody clarify which virus that has killed millions worldwide and ground the planet to a halt the fat people are spreading in this analogy?

You don’t think that if we didn’t have an obesity crisis that more people could be saved? All that money spent on the consequences of being fat, all the doctors, nurses and other resources being freed up wouldn’t benefit other areas of the NHS?

The thing is we just accept that certain people cost the NHS lots of money, we’re so used to having a nation of fat people, we don’t even question it.

@WildExcuses

Can somebody clarify which virus that has killed millions worldwide and ground the planet to a halt the fat people are spreading in this analogy?

You don’t think that if we didn’t have an obesity crisis that more people could be saved? All that money spent on the consequences of being fat, all the doctors, nurses and other resources being freed up wouldn’t benefit other areas of the NHS?

The thing is we just accept that certain people cost the NHS lots of money, we’re so used to having a nation of fat people, we don’t even question it.

Because if you confine fat people to their houses they become magically unfat?

BTW, ~84% of people in critical care units with covid have a BMI over 25 making them overweight/obese. Out of curiosity, would you consider putting restrictions on overweight/obese people because their ‘selfish’ behaviour is ‘the reason for pressure on the health service’?

If we did the Prime Minister would have to give himself a special exemption.

Because if you confine fat people to their houses they become magically unfat?

And unvaccinated people being put into lockdown wouldn’t magically become vaccinated. They would still have to go out for food and medical needs. They would be living with people who are vaccinated who are going out and potentially bringing covid home to them. So what would it solve? Do we stop children mixing as most will unvaccinated?

My point was that if we are talking about reducing pressure on the NHS, we should look at all the ways of doing that. It seems to be that being unvaccinated is to be looked down upon, so why do we not feel like that about overweight people who have numerous health issues that take up so many NHS resources. That money could be spent on cancer treatments for children with neuroblastoma who have certainly done nothing in their short life that could have given them such a dreadful disease. If we’re talking about consequences of actions, if that’s the direction people want to go in, we can’t just cherry pick what suits. Why is the potential pressure an unvaccinated person puts on the NHS different to the potential pressure an overweight person puts on the NHS? Imagine if less people were in hospital with the effects of obesity, heart attacks, strokes, cancers...we could be in a much better position to deal with covid.

I don’t actually believe it’s the direction we should go in. People are free to eat what they want, not exercise, not get vaccinated and do many other things which affect their health and potentially have a knock in effect to others. It’s not great, but I would rather live in a society where we are free, than the alternative.

People want to punish unvaccinated people. There was a poster last night who was ranting, swearing and insulting unvaccinated people hoping they lost their rights to go anywhere. I’ve seen threads with people saying they have severe medical phobias being told to get over it because they’ll be needing far more procedures if they get covid. No one should want to live in that world that treats people like that.

Ultimately, personally, I’m pretty much past caring for myself. I’m unvaccinated but I live rurally anyway, I don’t really care too much about mixing with most people if this is what people are like. I don’t work so I’m not worried for my income, I volunteer with vulnerable young people and animals. I’m not a selfish person as much as some people like to paint all unvaccinated people to be. I do what I can to not be a burden to the NHS, I keep as healthy as I can. I contribute to society and I help people out whenever I can. I find these divisive times we are in very sad. Posts like this, I just think why. Why do you want to cause more divide?

And if the 84% figure is correct, overweight people should be talked about as selfish just like the vaccinated are. There was also an article not too long ago saying there was an increased risk of severe covid and being being hospitalised/dying with covid if you’re a smoker. I think the WHO have said it also.

Do these threads need to aim some of their anger at those groups too. Tell the fatties to slim down, and the smokers to give up instead of all the responsibility being put on unvaccinated people.

So these threads......

Neither is necessary.

@PinkSkirt

Those saying they are done, did 3 years into WW2 people just say I’m done and I’m switching on the lights at night and not going into the air raid shelter? Wishful thinking could have ended this back in Jan 2020. FFS.

Actually yes a lot of people did say they were done, hence the need for the Air Raid wardens. A lot of parents also brought their children back from evacuation and there was a thriving black market

No lockdown ever for anyone

[quote CherryPieface]@tigger1001 but would they have gone to Murrayfield without having the vaccine passport and risk being turned away at the gates? I doubt it, so the scheme IS making a difference,[/quote]
That's a very naive attitude. Plenty will know that they would need to be very unlucky to be checked and would risk it. They would go in at the busiest time for turnstiles which will lessen the chances of being checked.

@PrincessNutNuts

I think countries need to calibrate the right package of NPIs to keep cases low so that lockdowns or Tier 4s etc are not needed.

Given Germany's rates have rocketed despite the emphasis on 'high quality' mask wearing, I'm struggling to think how we can simultaneously have very low Covid rates and a society that's not choked by unsustainable restrictions.

@PinkSkirt

Those saying they are done, did 3 years into WW2 people just say I’m done and I’m switching on the lights at night and not going into the air raid shelter? Wishful thinking could have ended this back in Jan 2020. FFS.

Being pedantic, airplane bombing raids were all but over in Britain by the end of 1941.

@Sparklingbrook

Austria is making us choose between the options, but OP says nobody is?

If you read the Austria thread, you'll see that it isn't the whole country, and nobody is locking up anybody despite the inflammatory language used on here from both sides. There are some posters in Austria explaining what will actually happen. It sounds a bit like the first UK lockdown when people could go to work, school and shop for essentials.

Neither because I believe in freedom and pro-choice.

Everyone under the age of 50 will soon be considered unvaccinated though. If you were double vaxxed by the summer you maybe have a couple of months of immunity left. So that leaves the elderly and vulnerable who've been triple vaxxed to go about their lives whilst the working age population who provide vital services and keep the economy going will be locked up, I'd like to see how that would play out.