Reason for vaccinating 12-15

[SoOvethis]

I was listening to Maajid Nawaz yesterday and he said his personal belief for why the government will want to override the JCVI decision not to vaccinate healthy 12-15 year olds is because he thinks the government will want to introduce domestic vaccine passports and they can’t restrict 12 plus year olds unless they have been given the option to have a vaccine!

Anyone else feel this is probably most likely what will happen? As that is already happening in other countries…

Let’s keep in mind that the vaccine is not sterilising - so you can still catch Covid and spread it if you have it with the same amount of viral load as someone who isn’t vaccinated. Also as mentioned before - research is showing that natural immunity is broader and longer lasting.

I don’t mind the vaccine being offered to healthy 12-15 year olds for those who want it as long as my son won’t be at a disadvantage because he has not had it. But I have a bad feeling that this won’t be the case…

www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475?articleTools=true

This recent paper demonstrated that there is a 6x greater chance of myocarditis after covid infection than after vaccination

@Sonarl
And I don’t disagree that you should be able to have that choice.
All I want is to make sure that my choice not to vaccinate my children is respected and they are not discriminated against.

@MontagueLeo

www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475?articleTools=true

This recent paper demonstrated that there is a 6x greater chance of myocarditis after covid infection than after vaccination

Presumably the JCVI also had access to this information.

I am massively pro vaccination and I think the push to override the JCVI recommendation is really unhelpful and will end up fueling more vaccine hesitancy it their decision changes further down the line with more data from other countries currently vaccinating 12-15year olds.

This is not anti vaccine activism. This is wanting to listen to the very people the government tasked with making this very difficult decision.

Exactly…where has “we must listen to the science” disappeared?
It’s become - unless it doesn’t suit what we want to achieve…

Also another point - I can choose to not give my children any of the childhood vaccinations currently and they will not be discriminated against.

@MontagueLeo
I have only scan read it, but it doesn't appear to be a study of children, and indeed it says
"Eligibility Criteria
Eligibility criteria included an age of 16 years or
older"
Covid infection has proven to affect children differently, so you cannot use the same conclusions without studying covid vaccination, and infection in children.

We really don’t know how long the effects of covid vaccination will last.

Various vaccine institutes around the world had been working on the safety and efficacy of basic models of vaccines against coronavirus and influenza viruses for some time, as it’s long been known that a pandemic would occur eventually. The vaccines haven’t come from nowhere

What’s certainly not comparable about MMR and the covid vaccine are the circulating levels of the relevant viruses in the community. There is relatively little measles, mumps or rubella virus in circulation. You’d be very unlucky to catch it even in a bad year. In contrast, there are astronomical levels of covid in circulation; now that measures to limit transmission have been all but abandoned catching it is a virtual certainty this winter unless you have some immunity.

The immunity provided by the vaccines gives much broader and higher quality protection than a mild infection.

I know what I’d want for my kids

torontosun.com/news/provincial/over-100-ontario-youth-have-been-sent-to-hospital-for-vaccine-related-heart-problems

@MontagueLeo
That is not what is being shown lately in studies. Immunity is broader and longer laating from catching Covid.
Vaccines are meant to target the spike protein while natural immunity targets the other 28 proteins too.

I’m for choice and am actively glad 16 yr old has access to it.

But any mention of doing it for public good / other groups makes me uneasy and I’d prefer zero discrimination if people choose not to for 12 -15. Even if I decide to go ahead (and it happens).

@boogiebogie
That’s interesting.

“ A report quietly released last week by Public Health Ontario (PHO) tallies the number of people in the province who have presented to hospital with heart inflammation following mRNA vaccination, and it skews heavily towards young people.”

Why are these things always quietly released or not released at all!

And for you @MontagueLeo

Broken down further, 31 of these cases were in 12- to 17-year-olds and 75 were in 18- to 24-year-olds. The vast majority — 80% — were in males.

[quote SoOvethis]@MontagueLeo
That is not what is being shown lately in studies. Immunity is broader and longer laating from catching Covid.
Vaccines are meant to target the spike protein while natural immunity targets the other 28 proteins too.[/quote]
You’ve got that the wrong way round…

www.immunology.org/coronavirus/connect-coronavirus-public-engagement-resources/covid-immunity-natural-infection-vaccine

[quote SoOvethis]@Sonarl
And I don’t disagree that you should be able to have that choice.
All I want is to make sure that my choice not to vaccinate my children is respected and they are not discriminated against.[/quote]
They're discriminated against already- they can't enter Malta without a jab and I can certainly envisage other countries that are vaccinating their own teens following suit - there may be more already with this entry requirement and I can certainly imagine the States doing the same when they eventually open their borders.
We have to at least have the vaccine available as an option for our teens so they can travel if they wish. To insist that the vaccine is unavailable is completely unsustainable where international travel is concerned.

@MontagueLeo
Have you found any studies of children (u16s) that suggests your previous statements are proven?

Surely vaccination passports for children (over 12s) can’t be introduced because all the other childhood vaccinations are not forced upon parents& their children. Children are not discriminated against if they have not received their MMR vaccination so it wouldn’t be right for covid to be treated any differently.
I’m still undecided on whether 12-15s should be vaccinated. I would want to see concrete evidence that such a vaccine benefits their health. I remember the Swine flu vaccination issues 2009, a cousin aged 9 was affected (and still is) with narcolepsy. Research shows 1 in every 55,000 were affected. DWP have had to pay out to people affected but no such payments would be made to any child affected by covid vaccine.

@MontagueLeo
No I do not….find me the specifics.

This is what I find

“For COVID-19 vaccines, all of the approved vaccines so far used the spike protein. The spike protein is located on the outside of a coronavirus and is how SARS-CoV-2 (the coronavirus) enters human cells. Its location on the outside of the virus makes it so the immune system can recognize it easily”

“ While neutralizing antibodies mainly target the spike protein, cellular immunity elicited by
natural infection also target other viral proteins, which tend to be more conserved across variants than the spike protein.”

“ An NIH-funded study, published recently in the journal Science, offers the most-detailed picture yet of the array of antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 found in people who’ve fully recovered from mild cases of COVID-19. This picture suggests that an effective neutralizing immune response targets a wider swath of the virus’ now-infamous spike protein than previously recognized.”
And link for this last one

directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/05/18/human-antibodies-target-many-parts-of-coronavirus-spike-protein/

Are you going to tell me that this isn’t true?!

I feel you are unaware that you are spreading misinformation.

@Dauphinois
Yes I am aware that travel might start becoming difficult.
It just doesn’t make sense that you can enter a country or a venue without a vaccine passport when we currently know that you can still catch Covid and pass it on when vaccinated.

@PurpleDaisies - there is no push to override the JCVI decision. The JCVI explicitly shoved the final decision on whether to let 12-15 year olds have access to vaccination straight into the laps of the chief medical officers, because the JCVI said that it only considered the physical risks and benefits of the vaccine, not the impact on their physical or mental health of yet another disrupted year of schooling (or limitations on their freedom to travel overseas). Vaccine passports in the UK are unlikely for this age group, but they exist where my children want to travel to so, imvho, not even giving this age group the choice to be vaccinated is more oppressively controlling than making it available for those who actively want it, as it limits their freedom of movement regardless.

[quote SoOvethis]@MontagueLeo
No I do not….find me the specifics.

This is what I find

“For COVID-19 vaccines, all of the approved vaccines so far used the spike protein. The spike protein is located on the outside of a coronavirus and is how SARS-CoV-2 (the coronavirus) enters human cells. Its location on the outside of the virus makes it so the immune system can recognize it easily”

“ While neutralizing antibodies mainly target the spike protein, cellular immunity elicited by
natural infection also target other viral proteins, which tend to be more conserved across variants than the spike protein.”

“ An NIH-funded study, published recently in the journal Science, offers the most-detailed picture yet of the array of antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 found in people who’ve fully recovered from mild cases of COVID-19. This picture suggests that an effective neutralizing immune response targets a wider swath of the virus’ now-infamous spike protein than previously recognized.”
And link for this last one

directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/05/18/human-antibodies-target-many-parts-of-coronavirus-spike-protein/

Are you going to tell me that this isn’t true?!

I feel you are unaware that you are spreading misinformation.[/quote]
The link that you’ve quoted describes scientific analysis of the immune response to COViD infection with the intent to use that information to develop specific treatments for infection with the virus.

It does not compare the relative immune responses to vaccination and immunisation and it most certainly does not advocate that the immune response to natural infection provides better protection than a vaccine.

Are other countries giving two doses? We definitely won't. So the international travel will be irrelevant. Eg I was looking at a trip to Germany and over 12s can only get in to the country if vaccinated . But I'm guessing that means double dose ?

It is an incentive tbh, dd wants to visit other countries , cities .

So basically this age group may not be able to travel to EU until they are 18. Madness .

@MontagueLeo
Show me the part where it says that the vaccine targets all 29 proteins please. I didn’t see that in the link you provided…

@olivethegreat
I wouldn’t worry too much. I think it’s only a matter of time before the second dose is given.

[quote trumpisagit]@MontagueLeo
I have only scan read it, but it doesn't appear to be a study of children, and indeed it says
"Eligibility Criteria
Eligibility criteria included an age of 16 years or
older"
Covid infection has proven to affect children differently, so you cannot use the same conclusions without studying covid vaccination, and infection in children. [/quote]
This is an evolving area, and once the data is in from the international teenage vaccination programs (which were only launched over the summer) it will no doubt be published.

It’s interesting that there is emerging evidence that boys report more episodes of post-vaccine myocarditis than girls.

With rates of circulating covid virus so high, rates of post vaccine myocarditis must be compared to rates of post covid myocarditis. We’d all love to live in a world where there was no covid and this no need to engage in the vaccination program but that is sadly not the case

[quote SoOvethis]@MontagueLeo
Show me the part where it says that the vaccine targets all 29 proteins please. I didn’t see that in the link you provided…[/quote]
The objective is to produce comprehensive and long lasting immunity, not to make antibodies targeting any particular combination of proteins