Are you letting child have the vaccine?

[GiveMeAUserName123]

I was just wondering if you have a child/ren between the ages of 12-16, that don’t have any medical conditions, or live with family members that are more at risk, will you be letting them have the vaccine?

My eldest will be turning 12 in the winter and I imagine will be given the choice to have it. I don’t think I want her too (I’ve had mine) but obviously it’s her body and her choice which is something that is held in high regard at home, so won’t voice against it, but if she does choose to have it, is she too young to decide something like this, as I’m not sure a child could really understand the full risk/benefit side of things.

How are you feeling about it in general?

14 year old, 1st done. Can't wait for 2nd. Older child done weeks. No issues

[quote CarrieBlue]@bumbleymummy - probably, but I have little to do with my nearly 12yo and 14yo ‘playing’ with anyone! Are you trying to pick some sort of fight? I couldn’t really care less what others decide for their children but I dislike very vocal lobbyists deciding that I don’t get the choice for my children because they don’t want their children vaccinated.[/quote]
👏👏👏

@bumbleymummy

I really wish that more information would be put out publicly about immunity after infection - particularly for children. They aren’t really making informed decisions if they don’t have all the information.

Who is "they"?

Children

@bumbleymummy

Children

Really? If they are teenagers, you are undermining their intelligence. If you are talking about younger children, then parents are most likely to make the choice for them.

What's so wrong for children to want to get vaccinated so they have less disruptive education?

Same for all the other vaccines too, not just covid vaccine. If we all stopped MMR etc, their life would be more disruptive.

You don't want to vaccinate yourself or your children, fine.
But just stop discouraging people who want the best for their children through vaccine. Please.

@bumbleymummy

I really wish that more information would be put out publicly about immunity after infection - particularly for children. They aren’t really making informed decisions if they don’t have all the information.

There is, I'm not sure why you keep saying, or why you keep pushing a cherry picked selection of studies that you think children/people shouldn't be vaccinated after infection.

One that has been pointed out to you multiple times, yet you seem to ignore, is that the CDC have demonstrated, in a cohort of people with a previous infection, those who did not go on to be vaccinated were 2.4x more likely to be reinfected.

You don't want to vaccinate yourself or your children, fine.
But just stop discouraging people who want the best for their children through vaccine. Please.

Yes. It is your choice and you should be free to make it, which you have done.

But the constant relay of information designed to discourage vaccination based on minimising the risks of coronavirus (both direct and indirect), suggestions that vaccines are not that effective or not necessary after infection, and playing up the risks of vaccination is irresponsible.

@illuyankas not undermining their intelligence at all. I’m referring to teenagers and I think they should have all the information to help them make an informed decision. That includes information about duration of immunity after infection. The JCVI have already stated that it’s a very fine balance between benefit and risk for the vaccine in this age group. If they’re already immune then the benefit is even smaller.

Why would you object to them having that information?

@leafyygreens I’m presenting information from studies and reputable sources that show the risks in certain age groups eg ons, PHE etc. They are not ‘minimising’ anything. They are simply facts. I have not said the vaccines ‘are not that effective’, I have said several times that they have been very effective at reducing serious illness in the at risk groups - you can clearly see this in the sources I’ve mentioned above.

I actually think it’s more irresponsible to not provide people with all that information. Why do you not trust people to be able to make informed decisions for themselves when they are presented with all the information?

[quote bumbleymummy]@leafyygreens I’m presenting information from studies and reputable sources that show the risks in certain age groups eg ons, PHE etc. They are not ‘minimising’ anything. They are simply facts. I have not said the vaccines ‘are not that effective’, I have said several times that they have been very effective at reducing serious illness in the at risk groups - you can clearly see this in the sources I’ve mentioned above.

I actually think it’s more irresponsible to not provide people with all that information. Why do you not trust people to be able to make informed decisions for themselves when they are presented with all the information?[/quote]
@bumbleymummy

But that's the thing you're not. You're presenting a selection of studies that you think prove your point, and ignoring everything else that demonstrates the importance of vaccination despite a previous infection. Yes, the sources are high quality, but that means nothing when the interpretations you're drawing are wildly skewed and biased.

They are simply facts. I have not said the vaccines ‘are not that effective’, I have said several times that they have been very effective at reducing serious illness in the at risk groups - you can clearly see this in the sources I’ve mentioned above.

You realise that statements that the vaccines are effective in at risk groups and statements downplaying their efficacy and necessity in the general population are not mutually exclusive?

You consistently try and make these arguments for those not CV/CEV, and that fact you keep dropping in "oh but I said they're useful for at risk groups" doesn't mean you're not spreading misinformation.

It's staggering the number of people who say that the vaccine isn't necessary in "healthy children". Many, many children are healthy, until they are not. There's a huge number of people with health conditions that they don't know about until it becomes an emergency situation. A friend lost her teenage daughter a few years back, to a heart condition they were unaware of. The whole family were then tested and it was found that she and two of her other children have the same condition. One of them has gone on to have a heart transplant.

We all hope our children are, and will stay, healthy. But its still a bloody big gamble.

It is also well worth considering the obesity rate in children. Obesity is a known risk factor in adults, one that is often shouted loud on MNet. Are the 10% + of obese children being considered in the numbers of children being offered a vaccine under 16? Not that I've seen.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn03336/

@leafyygreens I’m not spreading misinformation or ignoring anything. If you see a post where you think I am then by all means please challenge me on it at the time.

@DumplingsAndStew I agree about obesity. I do wonder if that’s one of the reasons why so many young people in the US are struggling. It’s an issue that can and should be addressed, even beyond risks associated with covid.

"Why would you object to them having that information?"
@bumbleymummy I don't. Did I ever say I did? See, there's another lie, a blatant one, making it sound like I object. I talk about pros an cons about vaccine with my dc. They are free to choose what they want to do. I appreciate their intelligence.
Tbh, I actually think you should be banned, your anti vax stance is damaging MN.

My children are a little younger but I won’t allow them to be vaccinated. DH and I are both double vaccinated but the vaccines are too new to trial on our own children.

Every day more info is appearing on side effects for adults and the reality is we just don’t know what will happen in the long term.

Thalidomide wax still available in Brazil ten years ago even though the effects were well known. I don’t believe the right Gov choices are always made.

Each to their own though.

@illuyankas

"Why would you object to them having that information?" *@bumbleymummy* I don't. Did I ever say I did? See, there's another lie, a blatant one, making it sound like I object. I talk about pros an cons about vaccine with my dc. They are free to choose what they want to do. I appreciate their intelligence. Tbh, I actually think you should be banned, your anti vax stance is damaging MN.

It’s not a lie. It’s a question. I’m glad you don’t object but I’m not sure why you’re arguing about it then.

What have I said that’s ‘anti-vaxx’?

MNHQ are pretty on top of genuine anti-vaxxers btw.

What have I said that’s ‘anti-vaxx’?

Yeah, of course, you don't. How clever. You don't vax yourself or your children, and keep going on about natural immunity. Turning up on every possible thread about vaccine when you are not vaccinated yet giving advice.

I answered your question. I don't object giving children the information they need. They deserve it. It's plenty out there.

@bumbleymummy

MNHQ are pretty on top of genuine anti-vaxxers btw.

The level of thought that would have to go into deciding whether these kinds of posts should be removed is not something that is possible to do on here.

As you keep pointing out - you're not an "anti-vaxxer" in the sense you're not shouting about the vaccines being microchips and you do think vaccination of at risk groups should be promoted.

What you do do, is constantly post links and sources cherry picked to downplay the harms of coronavirus, put doubt in people's minds about vaccine efficacy and their necessity, and speculate about side effects and long term harms of vaccines.

While you never post specific "anti-vax" content, despite tenaciously arguing with anyone who disagrees with you, you've never once argued against or questioned the posters who do post anti-vax content on threads you're active on, you're perfectly happy to let that slide and stay silent.

It's carefully treading a fine line that means you can carry on posting, IMO.

Deciding against this one particular vaccine (which isn’t mandatory btw) does not make someone ‘anti-vaxx’. And I’m not offering anyone ‘advice’. I think people should be allowed to make their own informed decisions, not be told what to do.

Ok, so what about other vaccine? MMR? What is your thought about it then? Actually it's quite an interesting thing to know, since 90+% of population needed to be vaxxed against measles to keep it at bay.

@leafyygreens as I’ve already pointed out, those links, that you say are downplaying the virus, are links to official government sites and studies in reputable journals.

I don’t engage with anti-vaxx posters because it’s obvious they are anti-vaxx and their posts are reported and deleted.

You’re perfectly happy to let misinformation about ‘infection not providing immunity’ and ‘reinfection being very common’ slide.

@illuyankas

Ok, so what about other vaccine? MMR? What is your thought about it then? Actually it's quite an interesting thing to know, since 90+% of population needed to be vaxxed against measles to keep it at bay.

I wouldn't even go down that rabbit hole as it'll totally derail the thread

@bumbleymummy posting history sets out her opinions on infectious disease and vaccination over the last 10 years. In short - it's more of the same, minimising the impact of infectious disease and the importance of their control, hinting at adverse effects of vaccination, and downplaying their necessity.