What’s the science behind allowing fully vaccinated people more freedoms?

[SparklesandGold]

I’m fully vaccinated and I do think if people can get vaccinated then they absolutely should but obviously if someone decides not to then that’s their own business.

I don’t agree with this nonsense of excluding unvaccinated people from doing certain things.

Is there any scientific evidence to back that up? Does being fully vaccinated actually reduce someone spreading the virus if they have it?

I currently have Covid and I caught it from a double vaxxed person. Maybe I'm just unlucky but I would never support "vaccine passports" and this has just reinforced that feeling for me.

@SparklesandGold

I’m fully vaccinated and I do think if people can get vaccinated then they absolutely should but obviously if someone decides not to then that’s their own business.

I don’t agree with this nonsense of excluding unvaccinated people from doing certain things.

Is there any scientific evidence to back that up? Does being fully vaccinated actually reduce someone spreading the virus if they have it?

Vaccination reduces the likelihood of transmission yes. If it didn't then there would no argument for the easing of some restrictions if you have been vaccinated.

There are valid points of both sides but one of the key benefit is if you can remove certain restrictions (e.g., like having to isolate in certain situations), on a population level this will have huge benefits for society and the economy, as people won't be missing work/university and other things.

I agree there's no value in removing measures like testing and masks as they have very little cost to the individual.

Vaccination reduces transmission. It also reduces the chance of someone catching covid and becoming ill, so when you put these two factors together, two fully vaccinated people are much less likely to catch covid from each other than two unvaccinated people.

Vaccination does reduce transmission but not as much as social distancing does....so it doesn’t make sense really to allow more freedoms. Especially as I read that vaccinated people don’t have to isolate if a family member tests positive for Covid anymore in England. I think that secretly the U.K. Gov is aiming for the old herd immunity concept again.

Being double vaccinated does in general reduce both transmission and severity of disease. It doesn’t eliminate covid, but does significantly reduce the risks. So I presume the logic is that unvaccinated people who get covid are more likely to spread covid and more likely to be a burden on our healthcare services when they get covid, so whilst we are still in mid-pandemic mode rather than at the post-pandemic stage, I guess it is one, heavy-handed way of minimising transmission without penalising everyone. Interestingly, a lot of people seem to be generally in favour of this as a means of inhibiting international travel, but suddenly feel it is different when happening internally. As though they see the logic when it’s a foreigner, but not when it’s a local, even though locals can also spread variants of concern, etc, etc.

Does it reduce transmission? I thought a paper was published showing that it didn't reduce transmission. I will look for the paper. Does anyone have a link to a paper that shows it does?

For example, if I was having a dinner party for some friends, I’m vaccinated. Say my friends weren’t vaccinated and one had covid while at my house, why would that person be a risk to me seeing as I’m vaccinated?

Ok, here's an example.

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

Basically I think the findings are that vaccines don't reduce transmission with the Delta variant, so those who are vaccinated should still take precautions such as wearing masks and practising social distancing.

Not what most people want to hear though.

Are you asking if you can still catch COVID even if double-vaccinated? Sorry maybe I misunderstood the question. Yes, break-through infections are quite common. No vaccine is 100% effective. So, your unvaccinated friend could pass on COVID to you even through you would probably get a milder case, and you could then pass it on to others.

@MoonlightWanderer

Ok, here's an example.

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

Basically I think the findings are that vaccines don't reduce transmission with the Delta variant, so those who are vaccinated should still take precautions such as wearing masks and practising social distancing.

Not what most people want to hear though.

Two key things stated in the article you linked

• vaccinated people less likely to be infected - therefore they cannot pass it on

• when a vaccinated person has a breakthrough infection, they are likely to be infectious for a shorter duration

On a population level, vaccines reduce transmission

@MoonlightWanderer - I read the same article and concluded that it reduces transmission in other strains, but is less effective at this with the Delta variant, but not ineffective, so other precautions (eg masks) should still be used. So not surprising, given the fact the vaccines are known to be generally less effective on the Delta variant, so it would be weird if the transmission element of that were unaffected... However, if you read the full article, research suggests infectiousness may be less long lived if vaccinated and also that transmission may indeed be reduced - see the UK study referenced at the end.

Reduces likelihood of needing hospitalisation, so won't overwhelm hospitals if loads of vaccinated people catch it as opposed to unvaccinated. Also reduces transmission

This is what happened to my sister and her husband. His nephew caught COVID at a party. BIL was double-jabbed so even though he had popped round to watch the football together before nephew was diagnosed, he thought he would be ok. However he and my sister, who is also double-jabbed, ended up wth COVID. They said it was like the flu and both were in bed for several days feeling very unwell.

Ok, I just read "It reduces transmission" a lot on MN and I think it's important to clarify that if you have 2 people with COVID, one vaccinated and one unvaccinated, with Delta they are both equally likely to pass it on, which is why a lot of scientists are recommending that fully vaccinated people should still wear masks and still practice social distancing. Vaccines are really important, and everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated, but I don't think it means we can totally relax measures for those who have been vaccinated yet.

@SparklesandGold

For example, if I was having a dinner party for some friends, I’m vaccinated. Say my friends weren’t vaccinated and one had covid while at my house, why would that person be a risk to me seeing as I’m vaccinated?

Because the unvaccinated person is both more likely to have covid and transmit covid than someone who is vaccinated.

Vaccines don't offer 100% protection especially with the Delta variant, but they make a significant difference. This is obvious when you look at the current stats and compare them to say January when we still had some restrictions in place and cases, hospitalisations and deaths were all much higher than they are now without any restrictions in place. This is the vaccine-effect.

As we have not gone up to 100,000 cases a day in the UK as per some of the scenarios modelled, it is a wee bit hard to believe transmission of the Delta variant is not reduced by vaccination, given the fact the majority of UK transmission is from the Delta variant. Letting people wander around post-known exposure to known cases will be the real test of the effectiveness of transmission reduction, however! So I guess we have to watch this space…

I have had one vaccination. And being pregnant I'm not risking my babies life for the sake of the second one. Every other vaccination is by CHOICE. I think it's absolutely shocking that this one is going to end up being forced on people when no other vaccine is.

Yes they really do help with transmission

@MoonlightWanderer

Ok, I just read "It reduces transmission" a lot on MN and I think it's important to clarify that if you have 2 people with COVID, one vaccinated and one unvaccinated, with Delta they are both equally likely to pass it on, which is why a lot of scientists are recommending that fully vaccinated people should still wear masks and still practice social distancing. Vaccines are really important, and everyone who can get vaccinated should get vaccinated, but I don't think it means we can totally relax measures for those who have been vaccinated yet.

But equally important to clarify that your chances of unknowingly having COVID are far less likely if vaccinated?

And the other aspect is that you're not equally likely to pass it on if both infected as a vaccinated person is likely to be infectious for a shorter time period.

So definitely important to still be mindful transmission can occur if you're vaccinated, but equally it shouldn't be used an argument against vaccination which you see a lot of on here

@Isandriena

I have had one vaccination. And being pregnant I'm not risking my babies life for the sake of the second one. Every other vaccination is by CHOICE. I think it's absolutely shocking that this one is going to end up being forced on people when no other vaccine is.

@Isandriena it is completely your choice whether to be vaccinated or not, but RCOG guidance (who only care about safety of mothers and their babies) is that it is safer if you take up the second vaccination, particularly in the third trimester

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/04/coronavirus-live-news-china-sees-most-local-cases-since-january-biden-rolls-out-more-covid-aid?page=with:block-610a3a038f0811859febd27d#block-610a3a038f0811859febd27d

"Double vaccinated people are three times less likely than unvaccinated people to test positive for coronavirus, according to the React-1 study."

"The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus."

Double vaccination reduces the chances of infection, reduces the chances of transmission if infected, reduces the chances of being hospitalised if infected and almost completely cuts out the chances of requiring ICU or intubation.

It doesn't cut the risk completely, but makes it far less likely.

Vaccinated people are given more freedoms, because they are less likely to die, even if they meet more people, thereby increasing their chances of catching Covid-19.

I have had one vaccination. And being pregnant I'm not risking my babies life for the sake of the second one. Every other vaccination is by CHOICE. I think it's absolutely shocking that this one is going to end up being forced on people when no other vaccine is.

BAME, overweight, and women over 40 are being offered both vaccines as routine in many areas because covid causes preclampsia and other clotting issues in the placenta, and BAME / heavier / older women are more likely to get those conditions. If you meet any of those criteria you really need to sit down with someone who knows what they are talking about to discuss it - that means a consultant obstetrician. Not a GP or midwife.

"The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus."

I think this is what further studies are disputing with the Delta variant. Vaccinated people have been found to have the same viral load as unvaccinated people and are equally as likely to pass it on.

I'm not being a dick. I think vaccination is really important as it does reduce your likelihood of getting sick, it does reduce severity (in most cases) and it does reduce the burden on the NHS. I'm just not convinced that the science show that it reduces transmission in the way a lot of people think. So, I don't think we should be throwing away our masks yet.

@MoonlightWanderer

"The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus."

I think this is what further studies are disputing with the Delta variant. Vaccinated people have been found to have the same viral load as unvaccinated people and are equally as likely to pass it on.

I'm not being a dick. I think vaccination is really important as it does reduce your likelihood of getting sick, it does reduce severity (in most cases) and it does reduce the burden on the NHS. I'm just not convinced that the science show that it reduces transmission in the way a lot of people think. So, I don't think we should be throwing away our masks yet.

The REACT-1 study quoted in the article is recent - these findings are from data acquired when delta was the dominant variant

The study, a major Covid monitoring programme, led by scientists from Imperial College London are based on swab tests taken by almost 100,000 people in England between 24 June and 12 July.