What’s the science behind allowing fully vaccinated people more freedoms?

[SparklesandGold]

I’m fully vaccinated and I do think if people can get vaccinated then they absolutely should but obviously if someone decides not to then that’s their own business.

I don’t agree with this nonsense of excluding unvaccinated people from doing certain things.

Is there any scientific evidence to back that up? Does being fully vaccinated actually reduce someone spreading the virus if they have it?

And the other two key points are that people are less likely to be infected in the first, and infectious for a shorter duration of time. These two factors reduce transmission in those vaccinated, even if viral load at a single timepoint is comparable (although this is contradicted by the study posted above) @MoonlightWanderer

But other studies have shown that the viral load is the same is what I am saying, but I kind of feel we are going around in circles a bit and I'm still not sure exactly what the OP was asking. She seemed to be asking there was any scientific evidence for not socialising with unvaccinated people if you are double-vaccinated and i think most people would agree that it's better not to.

I caught it off someone who was fully vaccinated after we all spent a few hours together in a pub, I'm fully vaccinated myself. We didn't pass it on to any of the other fully vaccinated people we were with though or our family members.

5 weeks later it looks like Ds2 now has it, he caught it when he went to school to get his exam results last Tues. 4 of them have no tested positive and 3 including d's are waiting results. All were single jabbed, but it's infected more of them even though they were only together a short time

You can compare infection rates in most vaccinated vs least vaccinated age groups to see the clear impact of vaccination. You also could track back through the figures to see the infection rates in each age group going down as vaccination uptake increased. It seems fairly obvious that vaccinated people are less likely to have covid which would mean that they are automatically less likely to give it to you as a group vs unvaccinated.

The graphs do, however, raise the question of if you are worried about socialising with unvaccinated people whether you are including children (who are obviously not vaccinated) in that group.

@MoonlightWanderer

"The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus."

I think this is what further studies are disputing with the Delta variant. Vaccinated people have been found to have the same viral load as unvaccinated people and are equally as likely to pass it on.

I'm not being a dick. I think vaccination is really important as it does reduce your likelihood of getting sick, it does reduce severity (in most cases) and it does reduce the burden on the NHS. I'm just not convinced that the science show that it reduces transmission in the way a lot of people think. So, I don't think we should be throwing away our masks yet.

This study was reported very recently 4 August using recent data and fully relates to the Delta variant, as a pp confirms and gives useful extra info about the highly reputable source of this data.

So, I don't think we should be throwing away our masks yet

This I do agree with.

And so do the experts interviewed here:
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/17/vaccines-delta-covid-coronavirus-safety-questions

(though it is clearly from a US publication and the US are very more concerned about their younger children not being vaccinated than the UK, which is more anti-vax when it comes to children. Plus they focus more on flying because they take more internal flights in the US in normal times. Plus the delta variant is relatively recently arrived there compared to the UK, which got it very early on due to the huge influx of unquarantined people from India due the government needing to maintain favourable relations while negotiating post-Brexit trade stuff)

"Basically I think the findings are that vaccines don't reduce transmission with the Delta variant, so those who are vaccinated should still take precautions such as wearing masks and practising social distancing."

I thought you were less likely to get it if you were vaccinated? I know you still can get it and most of the benefit is just to avoid a serious case, but aren't you also a bit less likely to catch Covid? If so, less likely to transmit too?

This study was reported very recently 4 August using recent data and fully relates to the Delta variant, as a pp confirms and gives useful extra info about the highly reputable source of this data.

Ok, I get that, but it was one study and others have shown different results. The link I posted does mention the Imperial College study.

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

[quote MoonlightWanderer]This study was reported very recently 4 August using recent data and fully relates to the Delta variant, as a pp confirms and gives useful extra info about the highly reputable source of this data.

Ok, I get that, but it was one study and others have shown different results. The link I posted does mention the Imperial College study.

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1[/quote]
yup, and in the article it gives this commentary

One massive analysis of Delta transmission comes from the UK REACT-1 programme, led by a team at Imperial College London, which tests more than 100,000 UK volunteers every few weeks. The team ran Ct analyses for samples received in May, June and July, when Delta was rapidly replacing other variants to become the dominant driver of COVID-19 in the country. The results suggested that among people testing positive, those who had been vaccinated had a lower viral load on average than did unvaccinated people. Paul Elliott, an epidemiologist at Imperial, says that these results differ from other Ct studies because this study sampled the population at random and included people who tested positive without showing symptoms.

Ok, I just read "It reduces transmission" a lot on MN and I think it's important to clarify that if you have 2 people with COVID, one vaccinated and one unvaccinated, with Delta they are both equally likely to pass it on,

We don’t have any actual data on secondary transmission rate for delta yet. Lots of ‘may’ and ‘if’ and ‘could’ in the research so far but nothing I’ve seen that supports an unequivocal statement like this.

OP asked why differential rules for vaccinated versus unvaccinated. This is based on clear data - an unvaccinated person exposed to Covid is much more likely to get the illness themselves than a vaccinated person, even with Delta, and based on that alone presents a higher risk of onward transmission. There is still also research that suggests that a vaccinated, infected person presents a lower overall risk of secondary transmission based on vital clearance rate and other factors.

But even without that, the R0 of the virus in a vaccinated group is much lower than in an unvaccinated group. That’s the data backing the policies in so many countries.

(I’m fully vaccinated and still wear a mask, delta is a fucker and I’m happy to do my bit.)

I thought you were less likely to get it if you were vaccinated? I know you still can get it and most of the benefit is just to avoid a serious case, but aren't you also a bit less likely to catch Covid? If so, less likely to transmit too?

You’re at lot less likely to catch it if fully vaccinated, even with Delta - 50-60% less likely, according to Imperial.

@Foliageeverywhere122 I had covid back in feb. I have zero concerns about it. I fully believe everyone should choose what they want to do and I've made the decision to not have it while pregnant.

@Ozanj I don't need to speak to anyone. I've made my decision. I just wish it wasn't being forced upon us. I had covid back in feb. I don't worry about it anymore. It should be by choice like everything else. I wore a mask and social distanced when it was the law to do so.

If you're fully vaccinated then you are less likely to end up clogging up a hospital bed. So if two people are in a 'high risk' situation and catch Covid, the jabbed person is much much less likely to end up seriously ill and put pressure on the NHS.

I don't think it means we can totally relax measures for those who have been vaccinated yet

So when can we then ? Bearing in mind that COVID will remain endemic in the population and that hospital admissions appear to have stabilised. When can we “throw our masks away”? What has to change ?

So when can we then ? Bearing in mind that COVID will remain endemic in the population and that hospital admissions appear to have stabilised. When can we “throw our masks away”? What has to change ?

For me, it’s let’s get a second dose into everyone who’s had a first one, given single-dose effectiveness against delta versus two doses.

Everyone ? Not going to happen.

Sorry, I see you said those who have had a 1st dose.

Have we a time frame for when that point will be reached ?

Having 2 doses is not the sticking point though. People above are saying we cannot ditch the masks and SD because vaccination does not stop transmission.

It never will. So where does that leave us ?

I think it mainly to encourage people to get the vaccine. Technically it may keep hospital numbers down if we restrict those who aren’t vaccinated but for someone under 30/40 the chance of needing hospital treatment is exceptionally low anyway.

@AnyFucker

Everyone ? Not going to happen.

Ok grand. I wasn’t precise enough.

So: time enough for every adult who’s had a first dose, to be able to have a second based on the schedule, with a few weeks leeway.

Take us up to around 85% of adults, based on where we are now and current rate of 2nd doses. We’ll continue to see improvements (hopefully) as kids get vaccinated and boosters happen.

I don't agree with the whole let's throw social distancing, mask wearing, isolating after contact with a covid person etc m and other covid regulations.

There was a recent outbreak of covid in a Cruise ship full of vax'd people (98% vax'd). All people who tested positive for C-19 were vax'd. So even if you're vax'd you can still spread and catch it. www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/08/15/carnival-cruise-covid-19-outbreak-27-vaccinated-people-test-positive-for-coronavirus/

I think breakthrough cases are much more common than most people think they are. Especially Americans who seemed to think that if you got the vaccine you couldn't catch it at all.

What about people who have not been vaccinated, but have had covid and recovered? In terms of immunity and viral load they would be equal to the vaccinated, no? Or better protected even.

Now that we have more evidence of durable immunity after infection I’d like to see previously infected people being treated the same as vaccinated people.