Informed consent

[GreatestSh0wUnicorn]

Just seen a picture of an acquaintance on Facebook getting his vaccine in a nightclub on a night out in London, how can that be informed consent?

Same with prize draws and voucher bribes for students, how can that be informed consent.

The nurse wasn’t keen to give me my vaccine because I said I didn’t want it but was feeling forced to have it because I can’t afford to isolate and want to travel, but someone drunk or bribed is okay?

I agree OP. The vaccination is a medical procedure and should require 100% informed consent. Although you do see posts on this board from people who admit they felt coerced and yet still got the jab. Did they tell the HCP this?

I don't feel 100% informed but how can anyone be?
We just have to take what we think is the best chance, on the info we've had.

It does seem, tho, that vaccinated people who still get covid have a much milder illness than those who are not vaccinated.

So on point 1 - I would be very surprised if pop up vaccine clinics had been set up at nightclub events and being offered to drunk people. This is markedly different from using a club as a pop-up vaccine venue, like for example the Tate Modern and the British Museum. Have done a quick search and haven't found anything like this being offered?

Point 2 - incentives are very carefully chosen in a way that means no one feels they have to take it up. Going into a raffle for a cash price, a free lunch or vouchers are not something that would make someone who was was opposed to having the vaccine suddenly feel like they had no choice but to go ahead. This has no impact on their informed consent.

incentives are very carefully chosen

ignore my double words, MN formatting going crazy this eve

@Foliageeverywhere122 I’m not convinced as a skint student a free lunch might not have changed my mind but would have pushed me in the desired direction.

@GrandmaSteglitszch maybe worded it badly no one is 100% but you get the idea, if a hcp can be dodgy about giving it to me who says I feel forced how is it okay to give it to a student queuing up for a voucher.

[quote CelticFairy]@Foliageeverywhere122 I’m not convinced as a skint student a free lunch might not have changed my mind but would have pushed me in the desired direction.[/quote]
Hmm @CelticFairy but that's the point really? If you were truly opposed to having the vaccine and were a poor student, a free lunch would not change your mind. You'd go without, it's just one meal. I don't see how this can be considered coercion.

If it was a terms worth of free catering then yeah I reckon that argument could be made.

[quote CelticFairy]@GrandmaSteglitszch maybe worded it badly no one is 100% but you get the idea, if a hcp can be dodgy about giving it to me who says I feel forced how is it okay to give it to a student queuing up for a voucher.[/quote]
But no students are forced into having a voucher? It's really not comparable!

@Foliageeverywhere122 okay maybe it wouldn’t change your mind if you were opposed to it more that it would make you go without thinking about what you are doing.

[quote CelticFairy]@Foliageeverywhere122 okay maybe it wouldn’t change your mind if you were opposed to it more that it would make you go without thinking about what you are doing.[/quote]
Why would it make you not think about what you're doing though?

Whatever venue you get the vaccine in, vouchers/free coffee/pizza or not, a vaccinator will go through the vaccination process clearly and answer any questions, explain the risk of side effects, and then confirm you want to go ahead.

I suppose it comes down to what actually is informed consent. How much you have to know v how much research others do.

In a nightclub??

You normally have to wait in the clinic /doctors for 15 minutes after a vaccine. People in nightclubs are usually drinking alcohol! Surely you wouldn't do both together???

Surely this isn't right?

I don't understand your point OP?

Do you mean that you think he was (by informed consent) drunk? If he has capacity to choose to drink poison (alcohol is a poison that kills thousands in the UK every year), he has capacity to choose to get a vaccine.

Btw nightclub or not, they wouldn't administer the vaccine to anybody who was too drunk to understand what they were doing.

@Peteycat

In a nightclub??

You normally have to wait in the clinic /doctors for 15 minutes after a vaccine. People in nightclubs are usually drinking alcohol! Surely you wouldn't do both together???

Probably using the venue, rather than jabbing people on a night out clubbing.

Probably using the venue, rather than jabbing people on a night out clubbing.

Just like other venues have been used. Mosques and cathedrals, for example. People weren't going to worship there. They were simply being used as a temporary vaccination centre.

They're offering them to youngsters after Boardmasters. I hope they test them first.

It's generally accepted that it's ok for a nightclub to sell poison (alcohol).

Given that, I don't see any issue with a nightclub offering lifesaving vaccines.

Do you have the same concerns about the mass testing of school pupils? There was a total lack of any informed consent there. Plus data protection totally forgotten.
As pp said, they are using the venue because many young people state their reason for not getting the vaccine as it is inconvenient to go to the vaccination site during working hours. So this brings the vaccine to them (night club) and/or motivates them to travel to a vaccination site that is inconvenient to visit during their working day (with food incentives etc). I doubt anyone who had decided not to get the vaccination would come under undue pressure in either situation. Plus healthcare professionals are unlikely to vaccinate anyone too drunk to consent.

No she made a point about informed consent, so obviously they were drinking on a night out, or the op would have just said they used the venue.

Are you sure it wasn’t one of the pop up vaccine venues in London nightclubs? Heaven had one last Sunday that ran until 9pm. I think a couple of other places have similar ones planned.

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick op.

@Peteycat

No she made a point about informed consent, so obviously they were drinking on a night out, or the op would have just said they used the venue.

Tbf she said she’d seen a photograph on FB, not that she actually knew what was going on.

My dd is in London. She told me that Heaven (the famous gay/drag nightclub) became a vaccine centre but it's only between the hours of 12 noon and 9pm on a Sunday.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

Are you sure it wasn’t one of the pop up vaccine venues in London nightclubs? Heaven had one last Sunday that ran until 9pm. I think a couple of other places have similar ones planned.

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick op.

Yep fuss about nothing

It appears this acquaintance had purposely posted a misleading post on Facebook the night club was indeed closed, which is a bonus it did sound like a step too far, thought payments, rewards, etc was bad enough.