Australia in a mess - NZ with a plan

[StartupRepair]

More than half of Australia is in lockdown now, sparked (imo) by the intransigence of the NSW Premier who ignored all warnings about Delta. Our procurement of and messaging around vaccines has been dangerously incompetent.
It all feels a bit bleak today. At least NZ seems to have a plan.

But what is the answer if the indigenous group is at particular risk and is vaccine hesitant ?

The only logical step is, given the worldwide nature of the virus, closed international borders forever and fierce lockdowns whenever even one case is detected.

Unfortunately the only way to encourage vaccination is when people are fearful for their and their loved ones’ lives - ie letting the virus spread. Otherwise people (anyone of whatever heritage who lives remotely) will just think that this is all overblown, it doesn’t affect me… until it does.

Personally I think payments should be offered to them, that's proved successful so far where it's been trialled, and will weed out those who are genuinely vaccine hesitant compared to those who are just being influenced by those around them / reluctant or slow to get round to it.

Thing is White Australia has had 200 years of inflicting trauma and cruelty on First Nations people. It is a complex and fraught history at best with some green shoots of healing and reconciliation. It is not OK to say these people are expendable because Sydney Siders want to go to parties and inspect real estate.

Startuprepair - what would be your preferred end for Australia, say, one year from now and five years from now?

@StartupRepair I have no idea what you’re talking about. No one thinks indigenous Australians are expendable. They’re already a priority group for vaccinations (including young people) and doctors are working with Elders to try to persuade them of the necessity of vaccination, but they can’t be forced, they’re perfectly intelligent and can evaluate risk and make the decision for themselves.
It’s unfortunate if their history with white people means they’re less likely to take the vaccine (is this true of the normal vaccinations we have?) but people can only do so much.

@StartupRepair

Thing is White Australia has had 200 years of inflicting trauma and cruelty on First Nations people. It is a complex and fraught history at best with some green shoots of healing and reconciliation. It is not OK to say these people are expendable because Sydney Siders want to go to parties and inspect real estate.

One thing which is becoming clear in the UK is the absolutely horrible suffering lockdown inflicts. One example is the way the rates of child abuse have skyrocketed. Cancer referrals have gone right down (not because cancer has gone anywhere but because people “stayed at home” instead of getting that lump checked out). 900,000 people sitting on significant arrears in their property and only not homeless because of the (now expired) moratorium on eviction. I could go on. And on. And on.

I’m not saying it’s wrong to lock down. Covid is a massive threat to a society and extreme measures to deal with it are required. However I am saying it’s wrong to dismiss it as being about “going to parties and inspecting real estate”. Lockdown is barbaric and has caused horrible suffering, particularly among the socio-economically vulnerable.

The issue with indigenous vaccination has to be resolved though - maybe a delay will help but it won’t be for much longer.

Yes it has to be resolved. It is a sign of the cruelty, short sightedness and neoliberalism of our government that once again this most vulnerable group has been neglected. Gladys took vaccines from remote areas because she suddenly got obsessed with vaccinating year 12 students. What do I want? I want a government that will listen to health rather than business and media advisors and which will protect the most vulnerable rather than pander to the privileged.

What do the health advisors advocate for? From a British perspective, the lockdowns have hit the least privileged the hardest. I appreciate the economy and demography of Australia is very different so I’m not sure if that will be the same.

The virus is spreading most in west and south west sydney, their population is more vulnerable because of a lower socioeconomic community they are more likely to be working in essential services such as supermarkets, factories etc and cannot work from home. They are also more likely to be living in multi generational households due to their culture.

The virus is spreading most in west and south west sydney, their population is more vulnerable because of a lower socioeconomic community they are more likely to be working in essential services such as supermarkets, factories etc and cannot work from home. They are also more likely to be living in multi generational households due to their culture.

Sounds familiar.

Exactly like the areas of the U.K. that were in more or less chronic lockdown for more than a year.

Yep exactly like the U.K.
The virus spreads within households. Essential work places like food manufacture and hospitals and care homes, maybe public transport too ( but I am not sure the evidence is good on that, certainly TFL say the tube in London is not a spreading location) Not playgrounds , beaches or parks.

The useful people, who we cannot manage without.

Who are then judged by the very people they are facilitating to "stay home, safe".

Yes, it’s workplaces, homes, childcare, hospitals for us so far. Not aged care so far although it did go through them last year in Melbourne. They’ve locked down hard and also mainly been vaccinated here.
NSW has stopped even telling us the various supermarkets and shops that Covid people have been to because the spread is so minimal. Although it’s more contagious, it still does seem to need more than a fleeting touch. Definitely not beaches and playgrounds though whatever that plonker Andrews thinks.

I can’t think of anywhere where it’s less likely to spread covid than on a beach.

Is there a scrap of evidence from anywhere that this has happened?

And you have that idiot Lisa Wilkinson saying how everyone in Sydney should be under the same rules to, I don’t know, form her idea of social cohesion? Because we all should feel the same level of stress and desperation, despite some areas having fewer than 3 cases in the whole area?
I honestly will never understand people who are asking for more rules instead of looking at what could be done to minimise the spread of cases while allowing as many people to live their lives as normally as possible.
Kerry Chant is asking people to keep their small children out of daycare if they’re “at home” - as if when people are working at home they can also be caring for infants. Hard enough even though mine are a bit older, and I can send them out on their bikes for a while when I work, and also they have Teams calls for school. But when they were tiny children there is no way I could have worked and looked after them.
Plus, if you pull children out of daycare now, when do they go back?

@Ozgirl75

And you have that idiot Lisa Wilkinson saying how everyone in Sydney should be under the same rules to, I don’t know, form her idea of social cohesion? Because we all should feel the same level of stress and desperation, despite some areas having fewer than 3 cases in the whole area? I honestly will never understand people who are asking for more rules instead of looking at what could be done to minimise the spread of cases while allowing as many people to live their lives as normally as possible. Kerry Chant is asking people to keep their small children out of daycare if they’re “at home” - as if when people are working at home they can also be caring for infants. Hard enough even though mine are a bit older, and I can send them out on their bikes for a while when I work, and also they have Teams calls for school. But when they were tiny children there is no way I could have worked and looked after them. Plus, if you pull children out of daycare now, when do they go back?

Childcare was shut down in the UK in the first real lockdown and it disproportionately affected women and pushed many families to the edge. It is rarely possible to work and care safely for a preschooler.
It is essential unless a parent is going to be allowed to care for them (on paid leave).

It is rarely possible to work and care safely for a preschooler.

A toddler actually died in the U.K. in lockdown one because they fell into a hot tub or something when their mum was on a conference call. I wonder are they aware of cases like that. Horrific.

Just wondering what will happen if hospitals in NSW are overwhelmed? Will the other states help out and take cases as happened in U.K. and Europe, or will they keep the borders closed?

@StartupRepair

Those of you who have reached a higher plane where Covid deaths are not upsetting- What are your thoughts about the rising numbers globally of Delta in children? What about Australia's First Nations people who are 92% unvaccinated and are living with massive generational trauma? It seems that the 130k deaths in UK last year just got you more immune to feeling loss.

1. What are your thoughts of rising numbers globally in children?

Probably less risk to the absolute vast majority of children in the long term than being locked down, missing education, and possibly even of vaccination, though more data is needed on the risks and benefits of this, which is another topic.

My children barely knew they had Delta, with one with no symptoms at all and the other one finding their dinner tasting funny once but they might have been milking it to get out of their not favourite cuisine. I was glad they had it out the way once it became evident they'd had worse colds.

1. What about the First Nations people

What indeed is the government doing about that? It is certainly concerning that 92% are unvaccinated and I know these people are not immune to the effects of lockdown and the uncertainty and economic impact it brings.

1. It seems that 130,000 deaths got you immune to feeling loss

No, it didn't. It got the vast majority of us rolling up our sleeves, some in vaccine trials (myself included), volunteering at testing centres and vaccination hubs whilst we were not working (myself included) and doing all we could to protect our elderly and vulnerable (like doing their shopping) whilst homeschooling our kids and holding our nerve and hoping that things would soon get better. And they did. And they will continue to do so.

@RoseWineTime

Just wondering what will happen if hospitals in NSW are overwhelmed? Will the other states help out and take cases as happened in U.K. and Europe, or will they keep the borders closed?

I worry about what will happen if delta gets into the NSW hospitals like it did here (as did alpha and original unbranded rona.

Apparently in the UK 30% of hospitalisation with Covid are nosocomial, meaning they got it in hospital when in there with something else - so it's not great if it spins through a cancer or respiratory ward but it's really hard to keep out.

There's enough cases in NSW happening at the moment that it might start to "take over" hospitals (I know there's already been linked cases but I'm talking about already unhealthy people catching it in the place that's trying to make them better).

I am so grateful daycare is still open. We have a 4yo and 17mo and they are full on the from the moment their eyes pop open each morning. DH and I have worked with both of them at home before when we have had the usual illnesses but this was really only viable as a short term solution.

Our LGA has had 4 cases in total since the beginning of this outbreak so we are keeping them in despite Kerry's calls to keep them home, and the stress heads on the local mums Facebook groups. DC love it. It's the only place they get to see their friends and interact with other people. Of course we keep an eye on numbers generally and we are prepared to take them out if needed but if we had pulled them out at the beginning then they would have been home for almost 9weeks already. We are double vaccinated though and pretty realistic about risk.

Re the hospitals- there are quite a few in sw and east that are starting to struggle with exposure. There have been oncology wards and mental health units reported on in the last few days and just over 1200 staff isolating.

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-18/nsw-children-isolated-from-parents-in-covid-ward/100385512

@RoseWineTime

Just wondering what will happen if hospitals in NSW are overwhelmed? Will the other states help out and take cases as happened in U.K. and Europe, or will they keep the borders closed?

We don’t really have the capacity. Every hospital in every state is over capacity including ICU even without Covid. You might move 1 or 2 but the options are limited. The distances are also so big that that is a specialist team taken out for a whole day and $40k doing the move per patient! Throughout the pandemic patients have been moving if they have to interstate if their care cannot be provided where they are e.g transplant but it’s not ideal

DetMcNulty "...fears of a police state feel absolutely overblown to me."

www.smh.com.au/national/police-commissioner-says-officers-wrongly-issuing-tickets-won-t-be-held-to-account-20210819-p58k76.html

"Put aside community policing".

I am sure that will go very well for the Indigenous community. It isn't like they have anything to fear from the police?