Freedom day from “other stuff”

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Many people were very excited by - and crying out for - the prospect of normality. Of removing masks and reducing distancing. Of dining out, nightclubs, holidays. Family visits, theatre - without needing to jump through so many hoops.

Why don’t we see the same response in other parts of life. Where the crazy hoops we jump through are there to mitigate an even smaller risk than covid ?

Take for example transport security. When will we be allowed to carry full bottles of liquids through onto aircraft again ? When will we be able to board an aircraft without being bodyscanned ? When will we get to go on a train without being urged to “see it, say it, sorted ?” every few
minutes ?

Those who were vehemently opposed to covid restrictions, vaccines and masks - will you march to prevent people poking around in your bags at concerts ?

I live in Germany where passes have been compulsory since March. No country made a big deal out of it in the news until France imposed it, and it really is not an issue. Restaurants, retail, hotels, hairdressers, concerts… you don’t get in without a pass. People just do it and have been for months, together with compulsory FFP2 mask wearing which you CANNOT declare yourself exempt from. It’s a small price to pay for ‘normality’ and not one I can get fussed about.

That is nothing like normality.

And people are being demonised. Not sure about in Germany but certainly in the UK they are

And people are being demonised. Not sure about in Germany but certainly in the UK they are

What are they being demonised for in the UK?

How is asking people in busy places to make sure they’re doing their best to not spread Covid, during high incidence periods, demonising?

As a vulnerable person (which I’m personally not but many others are), why should I feel nervous about going to a concert, in case the selfish idiots around me are Covid-positive and not protected in the slightest?

Some of us do the liquids through security 3-4 times a week. Some people don’t actually need to wear a mask more than once a month… it’s relative.

But if you're flying you'll be wearing a mask the whole time, won't you?

Maybe you used to fly 3 or 4 times a week, but that's highly unusual. Most people probably wouldn't fly that often in an entire year. But if masks are mandatory in all enclosed public spaces, most people would have to wear them several times a week, maybe for hours a day.

So to claim that having to decant liquids into small bottles - which frequent flyers will have readily prepared in any case - is the same hassle as compulsory mask wearing, on a population level, is ridiculous.

the selfish idiots around me

You do your case no good with this sort of language.

Your concept of risk is skewed comparing an infectious disease to terrorists which makes this a pointless thread in my opinion.

I suppose the danger here is that we will start to think it’s perfectly normal and acceptable to need a ‘health pass’ to enter bars/restaurants/tourist attractions even when the risk of COVID has pretty much disappeared

And when on earth do you think that might that be ? (I don't think it will be in my lifetime)

@Chillychangchoo

Your concept of risk is skewed comparing an infectious disease to terrorists which makes this a pointless thread in my opinion.

Yes, exactly the point : the infectious disease is much riskier than terrorism. Which is exactly the point of the thread - we are crazy keen to remove the measures which mitigate the riskier of the two. I never heard of any serious demands to remove the mitigations in place for the lower risk or any political party demanding an end to anti-terror measures.

Yes, exactly the point : the infectious disease is much riskier than terrorism. Which is exactly the point of the thread - we are crazy keen to remove the measures which mitigate the riskier of the two. I never heard of any serious demands to remove the mitigations in place for the lower risk or any political party demanding an end to anti-terror measures.

Perhaps that's because - as has repeatedly been pointed out here - security measures at airports are nothing worse than a minor inconvenience which most people will only exprience a handful of times a year, if that.

Whereas pandemic restrictions destroy livliehoods, cost the taxpayer billions, exacerbate mental health problems, disrupt education, prevent people seeing their loved ones and impact pretty much everyone's life on a daily basis, and (usually) not in a good way.

So while there may have been good reason for restrictions to be in place, you can surely understand why people would be 'crazy keen' to get rid of them. If you believe restrictions should stay in place, just say so. Because continuing to insist on the comparision with airport security is just making you sound a little bit obtuse at this stage.

Just confusing - that for the last 20 years we’re subject to extraordinary measures when travelling“

I welcome tight security at airports.

I live in Germany where passes have been compulsory since March....it really is not an issue.

Except among the Germans who protested in March, right?
(April)
(June)

since April the German security services are spying on the covid-deniers & protesters

You post

What are they being demonised for in the UK?

Followed by

in case the selfish idiots around me are Covid-positive and not protected in the slightest?

hilarious

@EileenGC

Some of us do the liquids through security 3-4 times a week. Some people don’t actually need to wear a mask more than once a month… it’s relative.

I was a toddler when 9/11 happened so I’m genuinely curious, what was the public reception to the extra security measures adopted after that? Was there a lot of opposition at first?

I flew to Canada a couple of weeks after 9/11. The security was amazing going out. (No different from normal on the return leg ). No one minded one iota although I was glad to be able to take hand luggage which wasn't allowed for the first few days.

The shoes-off and liquids limit came a few years later after the "shoe bomber".

As a vulnerable person (which I’m personally not but many others are), why should I feel nervous about going to a concert, in case the selfish idiots around me are Covid-positive and not protected in the slightest?

As a vulnerable person, there are lots of illnesses you would need to worry about. And, regardless of their vaccine status, the person next to you could be COVID positive. All you can really do is have the vaccine to reduce your personal risk and then weigh up whether or not you are willing to be at risk from being out and about.

Whereas pandemic restrictions destroy livliehoods, cost the taxpayer billions, exacerbate mental health problems, disrupt education, prevent people seeing their loved ones and impact pretty much everyone's life on a daily basis, and (usually) not in a good way.

No one is saying let’s keep lockdowns forever. Wearing a mask in crowded spaces and making sure you’re not infected before going to a mass event doesn’t disrupt any of the above, except education. With education you definitely have a point as many children have hearing difficulties or additional needs, and mask wearing is definitely an impediment to their education, so that one is tricky.

People ought to know the meaning of the words they use. ‘To demonise: to portray someone as if they’re evil’. I’m not saying they’re evil, I’m saying they’re selfish and their actions idiotic. To willingly put others at risk - when the epidemiological situation isn’t great - because you can’t be arsed to put a mask on for a few hours or to show a piece of paper before attending a concert - is selfish. When the rates are sky high certain restrictions need to be put in place. Just like the risk of terrorism has never diminished, hence the constant tightened restrictions at airports and borders.

As a vulnerable person, there are lots of illnesses you would need to worry about. And, regardless of their vaccine status, the person next to you could be COVID positive. All you can really do is have the vaccine to reduce your personal risk and then weigh up whether or not you are willing to be at risk from being out and about.

A vulnerable person won’t worry as much about illnesses that aren’t currently as widespread or dangerous. A vulnerable person also knows that vaccines don’t fully prevent transmission, but they do lower the viral load should transmission happen, and if most people around them are vaccinated, they also lower the mathematical risk of spreading the disease.

The irony is how I recognise some of the posters on this thread, who were calling me and others selfish a few months back, when we mentioned we were travelling abroad to see our families for Christmas. Between countries with a low epidemiological risk. Tested and masked and quarantined and everything there was. We were selfish for seeing healthy family members who wanted to see us whilst it was legally allowed… but suddenly having no respect for those around us and refusing to acknowledge we’re not out of this yet, isn’t? Simply because masks aren’t a legal requirement anymore…

@traumatisednoodle

I suppose the danger here is that we will start to think it’s perfectly normal and acceptable to need a ‘health pass’ to enter bars/restaurants/tourist attractions even when the risk of COVID has pretty much disappeared

And when on earth do you think that might that be ? (I don't think it will be in my lifetime)

When the risk of COVID will have disappeared? Within the next year I would imagine. We have vaccines to prevent severe illness in the most vulnerable and over 93% of over 16s have antibodies already. Reinfection rates are really low. We’re well on our way to this just bring another virus that we live with.

I remain opposed to liquid checks on planes and that kind of thing certainly hyas meant I have taken fewer flights than I might , although I have not been on a plance since summer 2019 now anyway ( 2 summer holidays cancelled in a row) so plane rules do not really affect me whereas being forced into a mask on the tube because of Mr Khan does.

“vaccines don’t fully prevent transmission, but they do lower the viral load should transmission happen,”

Recent studies from the cdc and PHE have shown that transmission from infected vaccinated people is the same as unvaccinated people.

@bumbleymummy

“vaccines don’t fully prevent transmission, but they do lower the viral load should transmission happen,”

Recent studies from the cdc and PHE have shown that transmission from infected vaccinated people is the same as unvaccinated people.

Scientists have commented on this that replication in larger samples is needed before definitive conclusions can be made on viral load.

Regardless, transmission is still reduced in those vaccinated due the much lower chance of infection in the first place.

People ought to know the meaning of the words they use. ‘To demonise: to portray someone as if they’re evil’. I’m not saying they’re evil, I’m saying they’re selfish and their actions idiotic

Oh well, thats all right then

*22:29bumbleymummy

traumatisednoodle

I suppose the danger here is that we will start to think it’s perfectly normal and acceptable to need a ‘health pass’ to enter bars/restaurants/tourist attractions even when the risk of COVID has pretty much disappeared

And when on earth do you think that might that be ? (I don't think it will be in my lifetime)

When the risk of COVID will have disappeared? Within the next year I would imagine. We have vaccines to prevent severe illness in the most vulnerable and over 93% of over 16s have antibodies already. Reinfection rates are really low. We’re well on our way to this just bring another virus that we live with*

Like TB (I appretiate it's not a virus) in the 19th century or HIV in the 80's and 90's ? Malaria in large parts of Africa ? A virus we live with doesn't mean no risk.

We use Condoms to prevent HIV and mosquito nets for malaria. DM had an X-ray before she could start work as a teacher in the 70's to make sure she didn't have TB. Masks on the tube and regular LFTs fall into the same sensible risk mitagation catagory for me.

That’s why I said transmission from infected vaccinated people.

In the NHS Test and Trace (NHSTT) case data, the mean and median lowest Ct values for all cases with Delta, where Ct data are available, since the 14 June 2021 are similar, with a median of 17.8 for unvaccinated and 18.0 for those with 2 vaccine doses (Figure 12). This means that whilst vaccination may reduce an individual’s overall risk of becoming infected, once they are infected there is limited difference in viral load (and Ct values) between those who are vaccinated and unvaccinated

Section 1.7.1

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf

@traumatisednoodlei was thinking more along the lines of flu/RSV… yes, we have hospitalisations and death from them. They aren’t ‘no risk’ viruses but we live with them.

I don’t think we can really argue that we’ll “just have to live” with terrorism…

RSV and flu have mortality rates a factor of 10 lower than Covid, they are also both much less transmissible. They are not comparable IMO