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Covid can spread just as easily with the vaccine?

37 replies

Fairunibutterfly · 30/07/2021 23:02

So I really don’t want to start vax/anti-vax war thread here but read this and don’t know what to make of it.

I was very hesitant taking my first jab due to being unsure of long term effects given that in my age range and having no underlying health conditions I had a very low risk of serious Covid implications for hospitalisation or death.

The vax has created a real division but I felt if I didn’t have it, I’d be labelled stupid and selfish largely at work (I work in a large organisation) so felt this weird societal pressure to have it and haven’t felt entirely comfortable since. I’m soon due my second and even more conflicted since one part says I’ve had my first so should just have second to get my “Covid passport” which looks like it’s coming but at the same time getting deeply concerned with how much the Govt are pushing this jab.

Anyway, all aside, one thing I’ve read until now is that the jab can reduce risk of serious illness and also reduce transmission and that’s why I read on here that people with low risk and kids may get the jab (to reduce transmission) and save those at high risk.

I just read the article below. It’s a live feed so I’ve copied the relevant section. This is implying that those double vaccinated can just as easily spread Covid(4th paragraph). Am I reading that right? If so, what does it do for the low risk people and why are the Govt pushing so much? I think it talks about draft papers so maybe this hasn’t hit the majority of the public yet and maybe yet to be verified?

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/jul/30/coronavirus-live-news-philippines-locks-down-13-million-in-manila-japan-to-expand-state-of-emergency?page=with:block-6104191d8f089093df86f326#block-6104191d8f089093df86f326

“Delta variant of Covid not more deadly than original strains, says WHO

Higher rates of mortality have not been recorded from the Delta variant, said Maria van Kerkhove, the World Health Organization technical lead on Covid-19, suggesting that while it may be more transmissible this does not necessarily equate to a greater death risk.

She said that the Delta variant is about 50% more transmissible than ancestral strains of Sars-CoV-2, that first emerged in China in late 2019. A few countries have reported increased hospitalisation rates but higher rates of mortality have not been recorded from the Delta variant, she said.

However, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention documents obtained by the Washington Post today cite studies from Canada, Singapore and Scotland showing that the Delta variant may pose a greater risk for the worst health outcomes than the Alpha variant first detected in the UK.

The paper cites “a combination of recently obtained, still-unpublished data from outbreak investigations and outside studies showing that vaccinated individuals infected with Delta may be able to transmit the virus as easily as those who are unvaccinated. Vaccinated people infected with Delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant.”

WHO’s top emergency expert Mike Ryan also said that WHO-approved vaccines remain effective against the disease, despite growing real-world evidence of their waning efficacy.

“The vaccines currently approved by the WHO all provide significant protection against severe disease and hospitalisation,” he said. “We are fighting the same virus but a virus that has become faster and better adapted to transmitting amongst us humans, that’s the change.”

The CDC documents show that since January, people who got infected after vaccination make up an increasing portion of hospitalisations and in-hospital deaths among Covid-19 patients, the Associated Press reports.

Van Kerkhove added that Covid-19 variants are not targeting children in the UK“

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 31/07/2021 12:48

@Tightsonatrain

There isn’t one. Well, nothing to do with preventing spread anyway.

nope not true in the slightest at @bumbleymummy, see post above

Vaccines significantly reduce spread.

See my last post.
RhonaRed · 31/07/2021 12:49

God knows op.

I follow this logic but am happy to have it shot down:

1 Vaccination makes you less sick.
2 Sicker people are likely to produce more virus to pass on.
3 A vaccinated person (on average) won't be such a spreader of virus to others.

kin432 · 31/07/2021 12:49

I vaguely recollect JVT/Chris Whitty saying that vaccinated people were 67% less likely to transmit covid. I could be wrong or the data may have moved on since then.

Sunshinegirl82 · 31/07/2021 12:51

It's a balance isn't it. Vaccine passports mean that transmission is minimised at large events with as little as possible admin and delay for venues/participants. Large scale testing is slow and laborious and is open to abuse as it's not that difficult to ensure you have a negative result if you're minded to.

I appreciate that if you don't want to have the vaccine then the passports are annoying but there is logic behind them.

Tightsonatrain · 31/07/2021 12:52

see my last post

your last post gives no further evidence that backs up your incorrect claims that vaccines don't reduce transmission.

as I said, if you don't catch COVID, you can't spread it -->

Irresponsible article that conveniently ignores that on average vaccines have ~88% efficacy

So yes in those ~22% of people who actually get COVID it is possible to still transmit the virus, but still hugely better than in 100% of unvaccinated.

Also important to point out the paper doesn't actually say there is no difference in viral load or transmission in those vaccinated compared to unvaccinated. It is reduced, but due to the wide confidence intervals (unsurprising given the study is underpowered), the difference does not reach the threshold of statistical significance that they are using.

Hasn't stopped the anti-vaxxers on here and everywhere else jumping on it to be used a another reason people shouldn't be vaccinated though

bumbleymummy · 31/07/2021 15:08

I didn’t say the vaccine didn’t reduce spread, I said that vaccine passports have nothing to do with preventing spread. See my previous post again.

@Sunshinegirl82 there is no logic in exempting people from isolation and testing when they are still able to spread a virus.

Tightsonatrain · 31/07/2021 15:14

@bumbleymummy

I didn’t say the vaccine didn’t reduce spread, I said that vaccine passports have nothing to do with preventing spread. See my previous post again.

@Sunshinegirl82 there is no logic in exempting people from isolation and testing when they are still able to spread a virus.

@bumbleymummy if you agree that vaccines reduce spread, and the purpose of a vaccine passport is to ensure that people going to certain events/locations are vaccinated, how does your statement make sense?

What is the actual point of a vaccine passport?

There isn’t one. Well, nothing to do with preventing spread anyway.

Tightsonatrain · 31/07/2021 15:18

@Sunshinegirl82 there is no logic in exempting people from isolation and testing when they are still able to spread a virus.

In addition, of course there is logic in easing restrictions in a group that has drastically lowered chance of transmission.

As has been said again and again (including yourself), isolation has many negative impacts including that on the economy due to people not being able to work. Part of the move towards "living with COVID" is finding a compromise in how to get society back to normal-ish functioning, whilst trying to suppress transmission to manageable levels.

bumbleymummy · 31/07/2021 15:36

And that compromise would be testing people. Not excluding people from venues/jobs etc who haven’t been vaccinated even though they might actually be immune. Why should only vaccinated people be allowed into a venue? What’s wrong with natural immunity?

My statement makes perfect sense. The passport isn’t about preventing spread (because people can still spread the virus when vaccinated). It’s about coercion and control and is an excuse to discriminate and ‘other’ people. I find it quite sickening that anyone agrees with it tbh.

Tightsonatrain · 31/07/2021 15:44

@bumbleymummy

And that compromise would be testing people. Not excluding people from venues/jobs etc who haven’t been vaccinated even though they might actually be immune. Why should only vaccinated people be allowed into a venue? What’s wrong with natural immunity?

My statement makes perfect sense. The passport isn’t about preventing spread (because people can still spread the virus when vaccinated). It’s about coercion and control and is an excuse to discriminate and ‘other’ people. I find it quite sickening that anyone agrees with it tbh.

@bumbleymummy this thread is about the (incorrect) claim that there is no difference in transmission risk in vaccinated versus unvaccinated. You've repeatedly tried to propagate this statement when it's complete bollocks by saying passports make no difference to spread.

Yes of course testing should be an alternative to vaccination for passports, but you're just twisting and diverting from the actual topic. Natural immunity is currently hard to prove (the presence of ABs does not necessarily mean immunity) and testing is also not ideal as it effective expires the moment you have the test, in addition to the fact it won't pick up on recent infections. This is why proof of vaccination (alongside testing) would be gold standard in terms of reducing transmission in the gen pop.

But this is a discussion for many of the other vaccine passport threads?

bumbleymummy · 31/07/2021 16:18

@Tightsonatrain and the comment you quoted from me was in response to someone asking what the point of vaccine passports is and I said there isn’t one.

Now, read my posts again in that context rather than the one you’re trying to twist it into where you think I’m saying that vaccines themselves don’t reduce transmission.

Sugarandtime · 31/07/2021 20:37

The (few) people that I know that have had a positive test result all 2 injections and seemed to pass it on to each other quite easily so transmission is definitely there

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