Caring about health: "good"! Caring about the economy: "evil, selfish and greedy"!

[Warhertisuff]

I'm fed up of people, generally liberal types whose situation means they aren't especially impacted from any economic impact of lockdown and restrictions saying stuff like "Boris is only opening up the country as he only really cares about the economy so he and his fat cats can get richer", as though the impact of restrictions on society doesn't impact directly onto the economic welfare of millions!

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Boris, but this sanctimonious drivel winds me up.

Can you name any known 'progressive liberal' who is making the point you allege they are? You're talking through your hat.

[quote lannistunut]@Warhertisuff it seems you don't understand the words you are using, you are using 'liberal' as a political insult, it is not.

Liberalism has been a force for good for centuries.[/quote]
In my opinion, liberalism has many good points, and has helped to spur some important societal improvements over the years. I'm not "anti-liberal". My issue is more with those - and they tend to be proud "liberals" who use the argument that supporting the economy is all
about helping rich guys in they city get richer.

Someone who is a classical liberal is for the individual generally so is imo more likely to be anti lockdown, pro individualism.
Liberal is no more good than bad.
A bit like the work progressive. Generally people assume progressive is good, but not so much if it means AI progression in the workplace destroys your job.

OP I genuinely think the meaning of the terms have shifted. I don't mean to put words in your mouth but as I said I suspect you're referring more to left-wing, which largely parted company with liberalism some time ago.

@lannistunut

Can you name any known 'progressive liberal' who is making the point you allege they are? You're talking through your hat.

It's a mantra that's being doing the rounds since last March 2020...

@MaxNormal

OP I genuinely think the meaning of the terms have shifted. I don't mean to put words in your mouth but as I said I suspect you're referring more to left-wing, which largely parted company with liberalism some time ago.

Yes, I think you might have a point. Maybe I should have swapped 'liberal' for ' left-wing'.

Left wing does seems to be more authoritarian these days and no longer about individual freedom. Maybe the disagreement is now liberal/ authoritarian rather than left/ right economically?
It’s interesting.

@Warhertisuff If you are not anti-liberal, then respectfully I suggest don't use liberal in the way you did in your OP.

I want health + economy.

I believe Johnson is unduly, and incorrectly, prioritising short term economy over both the public's health and economy longer term. He is politicising covid and not working on this as a national challenge. I despair at what they are doing, their unlocking is not wise and will harm lower income people the most.

@lannistunut

at 'sanctimonious liberal types', talk about deliberately starting a fight.

My family has been negatively financially impacted by lockdown.

Healthy population is an important foundation stone of the economy, I'm sick of thickos who can't see it isn't either/or, UK government has fucked up both in terms of health AND the economy.

Not sure how high numbers of people off work with long covid will help the economy, but thinking isn't Johnson's strong suit.

And the use of thickos isn't wading into the fight?

I note you can't name any liberals who have said what you claim they say. Because it is made up.

Are you puilosophically conservative? Left wing? A liberal? You have shifted your insult from liberal to left-wing now.

@MichelleScarn

Yes, I did indeed wade in, I typed thickos deliberately because the op used liberal as an insult so I responded with an alternative insulting term.

I'm a stressed out British working person who is really worried about both covid and the economy. Why do we have to be blaming that subsection or that subsection or that subsection?

I am tired of the culture wars. I care about Britain a lot and think we're going down a grim political road.

@MaxNormal

I don't believe that being liberal has much to do with the current mainstream left-wing thinking anyway. I find a lot of it quite authoritarian, and being liberal tends now to be decried as libertarian which is of course akin to murder. Nice strong state control and biosecurity is more the order of the day. The border rhetoric would not look out of place on a Britain First pamphlet.

Ed Davey of the Lib Dems appears to have found his liberal instincts with regards to covid passes at least, but that's one of the few glimmers I've seen.

Yes, I’ve been rather disappointed in the LibDems in this, although I suppose there’s only about three of them left. Labour have been a huge letdown. We’ve got a pandemic where both the illness and the measures to control the illness are exacerbating inequalities and disproportionately affecting the poor, and their response is “stricter laws and ‘stronger’ borders!” Seriously, lads? Seriously?

What annoys me is people who can't see that health and the economy are closely linked. If all the workforce is off isolating the economy suffers. If the response is then to stop isolating cases rocket and people are less likely to go and spend and another lockdown could be required so the economy suffers.

What is needed is a sensible middle path to managing infections so we can also get on with our lives as near normal as possible with some reasonable mitigations. Unfortunately common sense seems to be lacking in this current administration and amongst a large proportion of the general public.

The word thicko is justified. Control COVID and you control the economic damage, let it out of control and there’s more economic damage. If we’d had a decent test and trace system instead of the shite that was rolled out by Johnson’s mates, we’d be in a better place. Why don’t you direct you anger at the incompetence and corruption of our government? I’ll tell you why, you are a Tory shill.

My friend works in a care home, always has done, typically working class. She has long COVID. She’s having to take all her holiday because she is too sick to work, and sick pay is not enough to cover her rent. She could end up sick and homeless. There are many others like her. If Johnson gave a shiny shit about the working classes, he’d be making sure that sick pay was sufficient. But no, all he cares about are his mates in the city.

@sashagabadon that's my impression of how things have gone. The fight for justice used to align quite well with the push towards greater freedoms as well as social justice issues.
I feel like I've blinked and suddenly it's all identity politics, gender wars and wrong-think and I no longer have a political home. Tbf I was suffering from this confusion even before covid but it's heightened it.

If Johnson gave a shiny shit about the working classes, he’d be making sure that sick pay was sufficient.

Yes quite.

The idea the government have the workers interests at heart and the 'liberals' are the problem is risible.

The lack of proper sick pay in normal times is bad enough, during this pandemic it is basically national sabotage.

Yes Labour have surprised me too in some of their positioning throughout this pandemic. They have seemingly always gone for the more authoritarian approach, harder longer lockdown etc. That’s not a traditional Labour position in my view. Labour are against vaccine passports which I completely agree with but I am not sure they are sincere in this ie. if Boris was against them, I think they’d just as easily take up the “for” position.

I agree OP. Luckily I have not been financially impacted but I have had to work throughout as has another member of my household. No one really gave a shit about us.

If you don't do as these.people demand YOU are the selfish one. I don't know if they ever get the irony

I never ever want to hear the word selfish again. It has been used as a stick to beat people with

Politicians, the OP and supporters need to wake up. Freeing up pandemic restrictions inappropriately as has happened causes direct economic damage. A number of businesses in my area are closed completely or are restricting their range because staff are ill or self isolating, directly impacting their profits and possibly threatening their longer term viability. Margins in catering and retail are already tight and this latest situation may push some over the edge, adding more people to the unemployment statistics and eroding public facilities.

And back to my friend with long COVID. She’s worrying about what to do if she still has symptoms that stop her working once she’s used up her holiday entitlement as she can’t pay her rent with sick pay. She will probably have to leave her job and struggle on benefits until she’s better, if ever. Meanwhile back at her workplace, they are struggling to look after 60 residents with a skeleton crew. It’s grim.

If we invest in and care for the nations health, it supports a strong economy in the same way as maintaining good infrastructure like roads and broadband are important. The old now retired tories in the main used to understand this. I cannot relate to the current neoliberal conservatives at all.

In a nutshell, caring about health IS caring about the economy.

Lockdowns are for the rich to protect themselves whilst the poor go about working in factories, takeaways and supermarkets as normal.

Everyone is selfish. It's got nothing to do with political leanings.

I think there's just a lot of twats Liberal and not Liberal, pro lockdown and anti lockdown.

As soon as they have an extremist view (and that's what many have re Covid) then I can't be arsed with them.

I'd agree we should avoid lockdowns. Caution now would help reduce the need for them in the future (and frankly, who knows what the winter will be like)

It isn’t liberals making this false dichotomy.
It has always been the defence of the lockdown sceptics that they care about the economy, yet the stop/start strategy has been massively expensive. Think of all the money pubs wasted in lockdown last November on Christmas decorations, only to go straight to tier 3.
Now we have reopened, but with massively high case rates causing crippling problems for business, and the end of compulsory face masks making no economic sense whatsoever. It’s just right-wing dogma.
If you feel bitter at liberals, you are not being very rational.