A bonkers situation - or is it? Please sense-check me

[CoronavirusDilemma]

Name-changed so there won't be a posting history, but I've been here for many years.

My partner and I live outside London with one DC. My DP's son - my lovely DSS - is in London with his mother, step-father, and two half-brothers.

Last week, one of DSS's half-brothers tested positive with Covid. Today is their last day of quarantine. His mother and step-father are refusing to do any exit tests for any of them - neither lateral flow nor PCR. They have been clear that they want DSS's brothers to have their last day at school today (they have gone without LFTs), and they want to be able to travel to their holiday home as soon as term ends.

DSS wants to come up and stay with us today, and this has thrown us into a dilemma. We think, given the Delta variant, that it is more than likely that at least one other family member in DSS's family will have Covid, even if asymptomatically. We have asked them all to take LFTs to help DSS come up here, and they are refusing. They have refused to take DSS to do a walk-in PCR, and so he has had to order one online - but we feel there's little point in his taking it if the virus is still active in the family.

We understand DSS's family is working within the letter of the guidelines, but we don't believe it's in the spirit. DP and I have underlying autoimmune and lung issues, and would rather not be exposed if we can help it - and in this case there is a known quantity in the equation. DSS will also be taking a bus and a train to visit us, which widens the possible sphere of impact if he's a carrier.

My sense is to ask him to hold off for a week and take a PCR then - by which time odds are that if he is going to get Covid, he will have had it. Then, if the test is negative, he can come up.

Are we being overly cautious? I am mindful of the fact that people act differently, and we wouldn't dream of going out into the world if one of us had Covid without all of us having a PCR - but we are not everyone. So I thought I'd put it to the MN jury to get your thoughts :)

He could have already had it and had no symptoms, but done the 10 day isolation period. So if he tests now it could come back positive and then have to do another 10 days isolation. I’m afraid this is how it goes on at the moment.

Like you say, it would have been better for everyone to get tested when they were told they could because of being a close contact.

All family members are eligible for a single PCR test when one family member has Covid. I've read the guidelines thoroughly.

fair enough, I admit I have given up trying to track the rules.... A PCR can't say if you're incubating. To be sure, you need to wait until (?) 7-10 days after the first person's infectious period finished, then use the PCR. So that would be day 20 after onset of first person's symptoms. No point in release from isolation before that.

Is he in education because at 17 he should have been lateral flowing throughout!

he has had to order one online - but we feel there's little point in his taking it if the virus is still active in the family

Why the latter? If he takes it having ordered it online and he is negative does it make any difference. He cant continue to avoid in on the grounds that others might have it.

If he is willing to test.

Or you wait further until you are comfortable

@zoeydollie

I think you're being a bit bonkers about it.

He's done his isolation.

Even if he had covid, he could still test positive for 3 months afterwards - when would you decide he is allowed to see his dad?

This is not about me "allowing" anything: DSS's father and I are both in this equally, and in fact it was my partner who suggested that his son come to us later on in the summer rather than now. So enough with the step-parent angle, which is not relevant.

He has done his isolation, but his chances of getting Covid now vs randomly at any other time are higher because his brother has it, and they all share a relatively small space.

The end of a 10 day isolation is probably the best time for him to visit (especially for a 17yo at present) as it will have minimised external exposures and will have been more alert for any symptoms.

@Mindymomo

He could have already had it and had no symptoms, but done the 10 day isolation period. So if he tests now it could come back positive and then have to do another 10 days isolation. I’m afraid this is how it goes on at the moment.

Like you say, it would have been better for everyone to get tested when they were told they could because of being a close contact.

Exactly. And, yes, it could mean another 10 days, which everyone understandably doesn't want. It is a pain, and it's there for a reason.

@ragged

All family members are eligible for a single PCR test when one family member has Covid. I've read the guidelines thoroughly.

fair enough, I admit I have given up trying to track the rules.... A PCR can't say if you're incubating. To be sure, you need to wait until (?) 7-10 days after the first person's infectious period finished, then use the PCR. So that would be day 20 after onset of first person's symptoms. No point in release from isolation before that.

I know. It's all so bloody tiring, the whole thing: the changing guidelines as the virus changes, the virus itself, the relatively rudimentary ways of detecting and tracking it, and all the variables ... and variants, for that matter! We can only do the best we can knowing that it isn't enough to guarantee anything. And he will come up, one way or another: of that there is no question.

@Quartz2208

Is he in education because at 17 he should have been lateral flowing throughout!

he has had to order one online - but we feel there's little point in his taking it if the virus is still active in the family

Why the latter? If he takes it having ordered it online and he is negative does it make any difference. He cant continue to avoid in on the grounds that others might have it.

If he is willing to test.

Or you wait further until you are comfortable

He was lateral flowing, yes, and they are great if they pick something up with a very small false positive rate, but false negatives are up to 50/50, which makes them next to useless.

But I agree, Quartz. There's no clear, right answer - just levels of acceptability, and even those change from family member to family member.

@BogRollBOGOF

The end of a 10 day isolation is probably the best time for him to visit (especially for a 17yo at present) as it will have minimised external exposures and will have been more alert for any symptoms.

Good point.

He is also a bit of coughy, sniffy snot-monster, bless him - always has been. So I'll be jumping every time he clears his throat, no doubt! :)

He seems willing to take a PCR test for you and I think that is all you can expect and if that is negative then maybe just ask him to LTF every day he is there?

@Quartz2208

He seems willing to take a PCR test for you and I think that is all you can expect and if that is negative then maybe just ask him to LTF every day he is there?

Yes, this is what we've agreed. More below :)

We've made a decision, for those of you who are interested:

• DSS's isolation ends today
• He's taking a PCR on Monday which he'll post that afternoon
• As soon as he gets the result, and if it's negative, he will take a LFT
• If that's negative, he will jump on the next available train to us (we're on a busy route, so he should get one within the hour), and I am sending him a FFP2 mask for the journey

So with any luck, with negative tests, he will be with us by the end of next week, latest. That's as much as we can do.

He sounds a really lovely 17 year old OP you should be proud of him

@Quartz2208

He sounds a really lovely 17 year old OP you should be proud of him

We are proud, yes; he's a fantastic young man. I've known him since he was two. We had a choppy start the first couple of years - totally my responsibility - but my life would be the poorer without him. He and I are talking about taking a step-son/step-mother holiday to South Africa next year because no-one else in our house wants to! So any suggestion from other posters that I'm somehow manipulating so that my DP doesn't get to see his son is rather misguided.

Have you thought medium-long term about how you’ll manage future visits? Given that the current government plan appears to be everyone catching it just not all at once.

We will be in a position where covid is circulating pretty freely if under 18’s are not vaccinated, and peoples willingness in general to test will reduce. There could well be covid in their household in the future but no one will know or bother having it confirmed. i think your plan is asking quite a lot if you want something similar each time ad infinitum.

Well done your DSS - my experience in this pandemic has shown that a lot of young people are like him and really care about others and are willing to put themselves out a little to help protect others. It gives me hope for the future.

I think your approach sounds eminently sensible OP and really minimises the risk.

Just to correct something - it is known that covid can incubate for longer than 10 days. 10 days is not an absolute. The isolation period used to be 14 for a reason. It was then decided that statistics showed that the vast majority of people would develop covid by 10 days and even though a few would get it beyond that in order to make life easier for everyone they'd change the isolation time (and the impact at the population level would be minimal). But you CAN get covid even beyond 14 days after exposure (there are some well documented sequenced cases of this).

With the extra time to get and receive results from a PCR the OP will have covered well beyond the 10 days anyway.

@Lemons1571

Have you thought medium-long term about how you’ll manage future visits? Given that the current government plan appears to be everyone catching it just not all at once.

We will be in a position where covid is circulating pretty freely if under 18’s are not vaccinated, and peoples willingness in general to test will reduce. There could well be covid in their household in the future but no one will know or bother having it confirmed. i think your plan is asking quite a lot if you want something similar each time ad infinitum.

It is asking a lot, I agree. However, we are only taking these measures now because:

a) he has a sibling with Covid, and
b) this particular variant is tending not to be isolated to one family member but spreading through the entire household.

So our response is very much attuned to the circumstances. Up until now, he's been travelling to us unimpeded.

Oh, and c) numbers are rising rapidly, and exponentially in places.

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Well done your DSS - my experience in this pandemic has shown that a lot of young people are like him and really care about others and are willing to put themselves out a little to help protect others. It gives me hope for the future.

I think your approach sounds eminently sensible OP and really minimises the risk.

Just to correct something - it is known that covid can incubate for longer than 10 days. 10 days is not an absolute. The isolation period used to be 14 for a reason. It was then decided that statistics showed that the vast majority of people would develop covid by 10 days and even though a few would get it beyond that in order to make life easier for everyone they'd change the isolation time (and the impact at the population level would be minimal). But you CAN get covid even beyond 14 days after exposure (there are some well documented sequenced cases of this).

With the extra time to get and receive results from a PCR the OP will have covered well beyond the 10 days anyway.

Yes, we're also aware that current guidance does not tally with known incubation periods - which is also why we are being circumspect.

We've come to the conclusion that the official stance is "mitigation" rather than "eradication" - so while a 10-day quarantine will catch many cases, it won't catch all of them ... but the flow is sufficiently staunched to lessen public impact. Of course, we're thinking of personal impact, which differs, and so we are erring on the side of more caution.

And I agree that there are many stellar young people out there who in their own ways are having a hard time of things. (Note: I am not minimising fatalities and personal tragedies; this is a "both/and" scenario.)