Covid and kids

[Ticklemycarpets]

So with everything opening up, Covid rates rising and kids being the major group unvaccinated, I need to understand better the risk to kids so I can weigh up what we do / don't do this summer.

Are there some comparisons that you know of?
I'd like to know the death rate for kids of Covid compared to chicken pox for example.
Can kids get long Covid?

If it's similar to chickenpox for example it wouldn't stop us visiting friends but it outcomes are worse or there's the risk of long Covid.

My DC caught covid at school. No relevant underlying health condition. They were v poorly - hospitalised.
I believe they have long covid although getting a formal diagnosis is challenging and as such I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers are significantly under reported.
I can only liken it to being similar to the symptoms of ME or CFS. We are talking about a primary age child here.

I know we can’t hide from the virus or shield forever but I’d go cautiously. We try and do outside activities, still keep a distance, wear masks etc despite it being ‘too late’ for us.

gastrointestinal symptoms? Oh dear, then both my younger DC should have self-isolated and taken PCR tests last Thursday. I didn't know they were symptoms of Covid.

*And an almost 1 in 10 chance of long covid effects seems high to me. And they're setting up special clinics for it, so they must be anticipating some negative impact on young people.

It's so hard to balance though, as they really need to be with friends too.

It's the uncertainty with covid that gets me. Chances are they'll be fine. But. There's a small chance they might not be, and it may have long lasting consequences for them. I just wish we knew!*

This. ONS are saying 7% of children and 5% of adults are having symptoms after 3 months. This can happen even after mild cases.

I would stick to meeting outside given the rates currently.

Having had CFS myself for 7 years I would highly advocate taking sensible precautions as something like this has major repercussions on your life and can be quite disabling. I was fit and healthy before. There are no quick fixes to getting better as there are no effective treatments apart from resting and pacing. This for me means I do half of what I would have done before I got ill. Only have the energy to see max 2 social visits a week. Probable that I will only ever work p time. I was 39 when I got this. This is not woe is me - just a note of caution for yourself and your children. If I can prevent one person going through what I have it will be worth it!

We all need to socialise, its good for us, but doing it a little carefully at this point will help protect us all.

Good Luck OP and enjoy the summer.

@TheLovelinessOfDemons

gastrointestinal symptoms? Oh dear, then both my younger DC should have self-isolated and taken PCR tests last Thursday. I didn't know they were symptoms of Covid.

Really? On a thread where 3 parents now have shared how badly covid has affected their kids, you’re going with a piss take of a comment like that?

Unless you’re serious of course can never tell on mumsnet! If you are serious, ds’s covid symptoms went - sore throat - headaches - vomiting - cough - fever - Kawasaki. So there were other symptoms on top of the gastro one.

DC are at significantly more risk from flu. So if you would not change your lifestyle for that, there’s no reason you would for covid.

Flu can be dangerous. I know, as my father died of sepsis due to complications. He was 36 and very healthy/fit. They couldn't save him and he died within a week of contracting. Hospital didn't have the know how in the 80s I guess. The GP said there was one other case the same in our local area. Rare enough I suppose - but it changed our family forever.

DC can have a vaccine for flu. Flu has been around a long time and I imagine it is reasonably well understood in terms of complications.

Covid we have no approved vaccine for children and we are still finding out how it affects different people including children. The more time we have for science to play catch up the better the outcomes.

That is why I would urge a note of caution.

@GreenLakes

DC are at significantly more risk from flu. So if you would not change your lifestyle for that, there’s no reason you would for covid.

That’s why there’s a flu vaccine for kids. So we do “change our lifestyle” for it, in the sense that we protect them from flu through vaccination. And as @KisstheTeapot14 says, it’s been around for so much longer and the complications are better understood. Unlike covid.

And Kisstheteapot14 I’m so sorry to hear about your father. Flu can be so damaging too

Thanks @SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

Long time ago now but such a shame, he was a absolutely lovely dad, and never got to meet any of his 3 grandchildren. They'd have loved him - he was lots of fun.

My 11 year old has long covid after a mild initial infection last october, our doctor says they are seeing a lot of children struggling after getting covid. It has been horrible to see my child lose all energy, struggle with stomach issues, headaches, joint pain, exhaustion. He missed so much this year.

As someone posted upthread, 25 deaths of children in England from covid since March 2020. Not all had underlying conditions.

Someone also posted the long covid rate, carefully missing out the age bands. Sure, the rate in children overall is lower than in general population (~10%) but in 12-15 age group the long covid rate is 12.8%
That's a lot of children having their crucial secondary education years fucked up.

I do think the vaccine should be offered to that age group- my 12yo is still a child physically, but my 15yo has been through puberty and fully grown for 2 years, is taller, broader, than me, weighs the same as me...yet I can have it but she can't? Why?

The JCVI has seemingly gone against expert consensus on covid in children e.g not taking long covid into account at all, leading to their baffling conclusion to advise against vaccinating kids

There is no ‘expert consensus’ on that and a lot of respected pediatricians were baffled that the CDC still recommended the two dose schedule (instead of one dose or nothing at all).

It should also be said that flu vaccines are not all that effective year to year (some years it is, others it’s not) but we are used to these risks. And someday, hopefully, we’ll be used to those from COVID too

@KrakowDawn

No- it’s 25 deaths of DC within 28 days of a positive covid test. The figure for DC with no underlying conditions I believe is 5.

I strongly suspect covid was not the cause of death for the majority of these.

Research from the US shows flu to have a significantly higher mortality rate for DC.

The problem is not exposing children to normal germs is very dangerous. You can't avoid just one germ without risking normal immune development and problems later down the line

I strongly suspect covid was not the cause of death for the majority of these.

On what grounds? “Just because I don’t want it to be true/can’t be arsed with restrictions anymore” isn’t an answer, by the way.

Again, downplaying the deaths of real children isn’t a great moral standpoint, is it?

Don’t Forget The Bubbles provides a good overview of the latest published scientific literature on Covid in children.

Anecdotally, I know two kids who had no signs of asthma, aged 9 and 12, before they had Covid last year and have been diagnosed with asthma after Covid (and had the symptoms pretty much from when they were ill). It may be correlation without a causal link though.

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

With all due respect, if you support restrictions on the basis that 25 DC have died with COVID, you must therefore support restrictions for flu and RSV, which kill far more?

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

I strongly suspect covid was not the cause of death for the majority of these.

On what grounds? “Just because I don’t want it to be true/can’t be arsed with restrictions anymore” isn’t an answer, by the way.

Again, downplaying the deaths of real children isn’t a great moral standpoint, is it?

It’s already been widely reported:

nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2021/05/study-number-of-kids-hospitalized-for-covid-is-overcounted.html

www.wsj.com/amp/articles/cdc-covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-side-effects-hospitalization-kids-11626706868

Relevant bit from the above article:

My research team at Johns Hopkins worked with the nonprofit FAIR Health to analyze approximately 48,000 children under 18 diagnosed with Covid in health-insurance data from April to August 2020. Our report found a mortality rate of zero among children without a pre-existing medical condition such as leukemia. If that trend holds, it has significant implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses

25 children have died, thousands more left with long covid, education disrupted due to isolation policies, student illness and teacher illness. I’m assuming that supporting a lack of restrictions means you’re ok with all of that?

And as for flu - as has been pointed out on this thread already, there’s a vaccine for that, and yes, I support that.

If there were a vaccine for RSV then yes, I’d also support that. Not sure why anyone wouldn’t.

You might want to clarify what you mean by “restrictions” as I’m pretty sure I haven’t said “we need to stay in lockdown and wear masks forever.”

Letting covid rip through an unvaccinated population (children/teenagers) however, is a monumentally daft idea. People say “we have to learn to live with it like flu” meaning - do nothing, without seeming to realise that we actually vaccinate against flu.

Ok UsedUp

1. data that’s a year old
2. your assumption that other people agree that children with underlying conditions “don’t matter”. I certainly don’t.

@AnotherDayAnotherCake I’m sorry to hear about your dc. I hope they (and you!) are ok, and your dc can recover over time. I wish I had some useful advice but it sounds like we’re in the same boat! Gp and consultant v helpful for treating any symptoms that come up, but in terms of a long term plan, they’re a bit stumped. Fingers crossed more research over time will help!

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo Well yes. It's responsible commentary so will acknowledge uncertainty

@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo

Ok UsedUp

1. data that’s a year old
2. your assumption that other people agree that children with underlying conditions “don’t matter”. I certainly don’t.

Well, we should have a data-driven response, and it’s not out of date—it shows you how little kids have to fear from COVID. We now know this for a fact.

Delta variant is not more deadly, so the stats hold.

As for your second, nobody has said this. But these children are not representative of the whole, and always had to be wary of flu, RSV and even the common cold. C19 is no different in this respect.

[quote GiveMeNovocain]@SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo Well yes. It's responsible commentary so will acknowledge uncertainty[/quote]
And I don’t have any problem with them acknowledging uncertainty - as you say, it’s responsible! Unfortunately just saying “hey some kids are fine!” with no plan or thought for those (thankfully smaller number) that aren’t is a bit less responsible. It is good news though, I will agree there! It’s just sad to see that, like often on these threads, the kids that do have problems are disregarded or thought to not matter.

As for your second, nobody has said this. But these children are not representative

I mean, you just said it again. It doesn’t matter that they’re not representative. Their lives don’t matter less because they’re not representative. Vulnerable kids do have to be careful of other diseases, that’s true. That’s why they have, for eg, the flu vaccine. So the JCVI dragging their heels about allowing a covid vaccine for vulnerable teenagers/kids is frustrating for exactly that reason. Fingers crossed they will allow a quick rollout for those who need/want it.

Also a quick reminder that the 4 (I think?) parents who have posted on this thread about their children with long covid/problems after covid, all have said our kids previously had no underlying conditions. So yes, thankfully rare but also unpredictable. Parents need to be aware so they can spot early symptoms of PIMS and get help quickly - early treatment really helps.