Do 18yr olds really need to have the jab?

[In2mindsaaarrgghh]

My 18yr old DS hasn’t had his first jab and keeps putting it off. We have discussed this with him, however he says it’s not something he’s worried about. He also tested positive a few months ago, despite being completely asymptomatic, so hasn’t experienced any negative Covid effects, including Long Covid. I guess there is a feeling of invincibility. He does have mild asthma, however no other underlying health conditions. So pretty fit and healthy generally. The thing is I can see things from his point of view. So I’m not pushing him to have the jab, despite being double jabbed myself. My main issue is with the incidences of Pericarditis and Myocarditis in young men who’ve had the Pfizer jab. The MHRA and the JCVI have confirmed that there is a small risk in this group. So, I’m not keen on him having the jab until we have further information, neither is he but for different reasons. I know it may limit him socially but to be honest there are ways round it. Travel abroad may be the main issue, but that doesn’t really matter this year. Is anyone else in the same situation or have concerns about the Pfizer jab in the young?

More than 50% of 12-18 year olds in my state are now vaccinated. In my county it's over 80%. It's looking really good for a normal year at school come September.

We had a taster of 'normal' school at the end of this academic year, when the vast majority of the high schoolers had had the chance to get fully vaccinated, and they were able to start living their lives normally again.

It was so great to see them able to take the APs (GCSE/A level equivalents) and SATs, go to work as normal, have in-person graduations, go to concerts, take part in events, go to prom, get together to hug and celebrate, all without putting anyone at risk and all knowing that they would not have to quarantine even if exposed to Covid.

The senior high schoolers are now mostly going off to university knowing that classes will be in-person, that social lives will be back to normal, and that they won't face constant shutdowns.

It seems odd to me that people don't seem to want that in other areas.

We do want it. We just don’t all think thst children need to be vaccinated to get there.

Well... good luck with that. It sounds like the same sort of magical thinking we saw in the UK when people insisted that Covid didn't spread in schools.

To answer why I don’t feel vaccinations should be forced onto people for whom they have little benefit to protect others - I think that’s pretty obvious.

I had the vaccine. To be honest I was in two minds but DP wanted me to have it. I want to TTC in the next few months and there have been a few reports about it interfering with periods. I’m 41 so I was reluctant.

But that was in the end my own choice. Coerced choice is not choice.

I personally wouldn’t be giving my child(ren) the flu jab either for the same reason. If it’s not of benefit to them I don’t want them to have it. Altruism is noble but it doesn’t extend as far as putting my own children at risk.

@summersflowers
I personally wouldn’t be giving my child(ren) the flu jab either for the same reason. If it’s not of benefit to them I don’t want them to have it. Altruism is noble but it doesn’t extend as far as putting my own children at risk.

You're missing the point, it is of benefit to them. Do you want your child(ren) to be at home doing remote learning because we've had to go back into lockdown.

@bumbleymummy
We do want it. We just don’t all think that children need to be vaccinated to get there.

Unless there are particular circumstances over here we are vaccinating 18 plus (so not children) but please can you explain how we keep the country functioning and open without high levels of vaccination rates?

Yes, I can compare. They both spread, they both kill people, we shut down for one but not the other.

No, You can't compare. The flu is a different virus to Covid. Yes, they both spread and yes they both kill people. I'm not downplaying flu, it can obviously be very serious but we haven't been in a situation where we have had to shutdown for flu. I haven't heard of "long flu" and, as far as I am aware, I don't think flu can attack multiple organs.

The world has been trying to get a grip on Covid for 18 months now.

My child is 7 months so not really applicable

But I think if the adults are vaccinated that shouldn’t be happening.

I don’t think there is any justification for asking children to take a risk for the benefit of adults.

[quote Thiscantreallybehappening]**@bumbleymummy
We do want it. We just don’t all think that children need to be vaccinated to get there.

Unless there are particular circumstances over here we are vaccinating 18 plus (so not children) but please can you explain how we keep the country functioning and open without high levels of vaccination rates?[/quote]
Have I imagined it or has the country not been opening and functioning for several months now? Since before we even finished vaccinating the most at risk groups who were the ones most likely to end up in hospital.

@Thiscantreallybehappening

Yes, I can compare. They both spread, they both kill people, we shut down for one but not the other.

No, You can't compare. The flu is a different virus to Covid. Yes, they both spread and yes they both kill people. I'm not downplaying flu, it can obviously be very serious but we haven't been in a situation where we have had to shutdown for flu. I haven't heard of "long flu" and, as far as I am aware, I don't think flu can attack multiple organs.

The world has been trying to get a grip on Covid for 18 months now.

Well, seeing as I was only comparing them to the extent that they both spread and can kill people, yes, they’re comparable. And yes, despite that, we haven’t shut down for flu.

@summersflowers

This thread is about 18 year olds having the vaccine, not young children.

For the last time, if a lot of that age group or any age group for that matter decide not to take the offer of a vaccine they might have to accept that we will have further restrictions imposed on us.

Without a high level of vaccination across the country we risk another variant emerging, we risk more spread, more hospitalisations and more pressure on the NHS. That ultimately will lead to more restrictions.

Then there will be a whole load of threads moaning about school closures, remote learning, mental health issues, career progression, the economy etc.

I mean surely you can see that there is a domino effect if vaccination rates are low. People like the OP's DS rely on other people seeing the bigger picture and understanding that vaccination is a collective effort and helps everyone.

@bumbleymummy
Have I imagined it or has the country not been opening and functioning for several months now? Since before we even finished vaccinating the most at risk groups who were the ones most likely to end up in hospital.

Really!!! The country has been opening up and functioning, yes of course it has but the country is not back to functioning how it did pre Covid, and you know that very well.

We have been taking steps and opening up different parts of the economy and why have we been able to do that ...... let me think - oh yes its the vaccines that have enabled that to happen.

If we want to continue to open up and fully function we need the younger age groups to take up the vaccines.

So she feels there are benefits to the vaccination, so would get it / choose her children to get it. That’s fine, I personally feel any potential risks are greater than any possible benefits.

@Thiscantreallybehappening the point of the restrictions was to reduce pressure on the nhs. The JCVI prioritised the groups that were the most likely to be hospitalised/die. The vaccines are now doing the job they were designed to do - reducing the risk of hospitalisation and death - in the people that were most likely to be seriously ill.

Vaccinating young people will really not change that much because they aren’t likely to be seriously ill and end up in hospital anyway. It’s clear that the vaccine isn’t stopping the delta variant from spreading -double vaxxed people are still being infected and transmitting it to others. So the argument that young people need vaccinated ‘for the greater good’ is a bit weak now too.

People seem to forget that many of those ‘healthy’ young people who died in the 1918 pandemic were just back from fighting in the trenches and had been living on crappy rations for years. Hardly ‘healthy’ . They also didn’t have antibiotics for secondary infections (eg pneumonia) or an NHS for healthcare either.

Whilst I don't for one minute think that the nightclub proposal will happen, I still think that all 18 year olds should be vaccinated. I don't want to see a repeat of the scenes of students almost being under something akin to house arrest in university halls again.

Vaccinating young people will really not change that much because they aren’t likely to be seriously ill and end up in hospital anyway. It’s clear that the vaccine isn’t stopping the delta variant from spreading -double vaxxed people are still being infected and transmitting it to others. So the argument that young people need vaccinated ‘for the greater good’ is a bit weak now too.

I was going to reply to this ridiculous, ill informed statement but I just can't be bothered.

If we end up back with restrictions, I'm assuming I won't see you posting about how unfair it all is.

We will have to agree to disagree.

@bumbleymummy

Vaccinating young people will really not change that much because they aren’t likely to be seriously ill and end up in hospital anyway. It’s clear that the vaccine isn’t stopping the delta variant from spreading -double vaxxed people are still being infected and transmitting it to others. So the argument that young people need vaccinated ‘for the greater good’ is a bit weak now too.

I was going to reply to this ridiculous, ill informed statement but I just can't be bothered.

If we end up back with restrictions, I'm assuming I won't see you posting about how unfair it all is.

We will have to agree to disagree.

@newnortherner111

Whilst I don't for one minute think that the nightclub proposal will happen, I still think that all 18 year olds should be vaccinated. I don't want to see a repeat of the scenes of students almost being under something akin to house arrest in university halls again.

Yes - my older daughter has lost a year and a half of her time at university. Another reason she leapt at the vaccine when it was offered.

@In2mindsaaarrgghh
I'm not in the same situation as you, but I do have two godsons and we have talked about it. One of them had COVID-19 (with mild symptoms) and isn't vaccinated, the other got vaccinated (1st dose so far, AZ) but only because he wants to travel during the summer, and the vaccine status will make things easier while he's abroad.

It's the boys own decision, of course, but here's my thinking on it:

If the 18 year old has had COVID-19 and lived through the experience without even showing symptoms, that shows that his immune system is good, capable of overcoming SARS-COV-2 virus. He shouldn't need the vaccine - what would it give him that he hasn't already got? His body will have taught his immune system to recognise the SARS-COV-2 virus if he gets exposed to it again and to protect him fro it again.

His immune system has learned to recognise all parts amd proteins on the surface of the natural virus, and not just the S-spike glycoproteins which appear in mRNA (Pfizer, Moderna) and adenovirus Viral Vector (AZ, Johnson & Johnson) vaccines. Far better than vaccines, because if the S-spike mutates, the antibodies created by the vaccines might no longer recognise the virus. Whereas the antobodies created by the natural virus will have created antibodies which recognise other proteins on the virus surface. The mRNA and Viral Vector vaccines have put all their eggs in the S-spike basket, which makes them vulnerable to mutations.

A word of caution: Despite the positive test a few months ago, are you absolutely sure that he has had COVID-19? This could have been a false positive (PCR) test. I suspect that there are a high proportion of false positives, because otherwise the Government probably wouldn't be advising people who have had COV-ID-19 to get one dose of the vaccine.

You could persuade him to have the antibody test, to check whether his body has created antibodies to SARS-COV-2. If antibodies are detected, then he has definitely had COVID-19. But, if no antibodies are found, that doesn't mean that he hasn't had COVID-19. After the infection, the body creates lots of antibodies, but after a while, if the person isn't esposed to the virus again, then the body stops producing antibodies, and after a few months, there might be no antibodies in the serum. However, the body will have created memory cells, and as soon as the person is exposed again, the body will take a couple of days to start producing the antibodies again. It's possible to test for the presence of these memory cells too, but it's not a simple blood test, and probably not available on NHS. You could ask your GP about it. If he has these memory cells, then he doesn't need the vaccine. If he doesn't, then he has not had COVID-19, and might be wise to take the vaccine.

Vaccines are safe-ish, but not for everybody, although the risk is small. If your son hasn't had COVID-19, he should consider vaccines, weighing up risks of side effects from vaccines to risks of catching COVID-19 and risks of the Disease itself. If he decides to get vaccinated, perhaps the best vaccine would be the one based on the whole inactivated virus, and not just on the S-spike vaccines. The inactivated virus vaccine would create antibodies to all proteins on the surface of the virus, and not just to the S-spike, which could mutate. The problem is, you can't get inactivated virus vaccines in UK yet. Chinese Sinopharm vaccine is based on the Inactivated virus, but you'd have to travel some way to get it - some EU countries do provide Sinopharm, Hungary or Slovakia, not sure which. Alternatively, you could wait for VALNEVA, which is also based on the inactivated virus, and is undergoing trials as we speak. From what I've read, it will be manufactured in Scotland and you might have to wait until September or October for it - google Valneva.

Love your moniker by the way, that's how I feel most of the time!

I'm not in the UK and my daughter (12) has had both Pfizer jabs. I believe the heart concern is mitigated if you avoid exercise for a few days following the vaccine (e.g. do not get heart rate high!). I personally would rather she have the vaccine than potentially suffer with long COVID for the rest of her life.

Herd Immunity isn’t achievable with Delta so suggesting young people get vaccinated to contribute towards it is futile.

SARS Cov 2 will continue to circulate as other common cold ones do. It will be reduced to a mild disease by vax/prior infections.

Personally I don’t see merit in vaccinating mildly affected, when vaccines are less able to prevent transmission than previously hoped.

Thanks for your responses everyone. What an interesting mix of views. It seems that when it comes to vaccinating the young, things aren’t as clear cut. DS is going to University in the autumn so I think this will have the biggest bearing on his decision about the vaccine. It looks like the government are “blackmailing” the young to get the vaccine, with the introduction of Covid passports for clubs etc, which may ultimately work. I personally think a negative test, is a better indicator of your Covid status than whether you’ve had the vaccine. Immunity wanes anyway and we’ll all need regular boosters to be truly protected, which will never happen, nor do I want either of those things to happen. The bottom line is we are all going to have to live with this virus and get on with our lives.

[quote Desnol]@In2mindsaaarrgghh
I'm not in the same situation as you, but I do have two godsons and we have talked about it. One of them had COVID-19 (with mild symptoms) and isn't vaccinated, the other got vaccinated (1st dose so far, AZ) but only because he wants to travel during the summer, and the vaccine status will make things easier while he's abroad.

It's the boys own decision, of course, but here's my thinking on it:

If the 18 year old has had COVID-19 and lived through the experience without even showing symptoms, that shows that his immune system is good, capable of overcoming SARS-COV-2 virus. He shouldn't need the vaccine - what would it give him that he hasn't already got? His body will have taught his immune system to recognise the SARS-COV-2 virus if he gets exposed to it again and to protect him fro it again.

His immune system has learned to recognise all parts amd proteins on the surface of the natural virus, and not just the S-spike glycoproteins which appear in mRNA (Pfizer, Moderna) and adenovirus Viral Vector (AZ, Johnson & Johnson) vaccines. Far better than vaccines, because if the S-spike mutates, the antibodies created by the vaccines might no longer recognise the virus. Whereas the antobodies created by the natural virus will have created antibodies which recognise other proteins on the virus surface. The mRNA and Viral Vector vaccines have put all their eggs in the S-spike basket, which makes them vulnerable to mutations.

A word of caution: Despite the positive test a few months ago, are you absolutely sure that he has had COVID-19? This could have been a false positive (PCR) test. I suspect that there are a high proportion of false positives, because otherwise the Government probably wouldn't be advising people who have had COV-ID-19 to get one dose of the vaccine.

You could persuade him to have the antibody test, to check whether his body has created antibodies to SARS-COV-2. If antibodies are detected, then he has definitely had COVID-19. But, if no antibodies are found, that doesn't mean that he hasn't had COVID-19. After the infection, the body creates lots of antibodies, but after a while, if the person isn't esposed to the virus again, then the body stops producing antibodies, and after a few months, there might be no antibodies in the serum. However, the body will have created memory cells, and as soon as the person is exposed again, the body will take a couple of days to start producing the antibodies again. It's possible to test for the presence of these memory cells too, but it's not a simple blood test, and probably not available on NHS. You could ask your GP about it. If he has these memory cells, then he doesn't need the vaccine. If he doesn't, then he has not had COVID-19, and might be wise to take the vaccine.

Vaccines are safe-ish, but not for everybody, although the risk is small. If your son hasn't had COVID-19, he should consider vaccines, weighing up risks of side effects from vaccines to risks of catching COVID-19 and risks of the Disease itself. If he decides to get vaccinated, perhaps the best vaccine would be the one based on the whole inactivated virus, and not just on the S-spike vaccines. The inactivated virus vaccine would create antibodies to all proteins on the surface of the virus, and not just to the S-spike, which could mutate. The problem is, you can't get inactivated virus vaccines in UK yet. Chinese Sinopharm vaccine is based on the Inactivated virus, but you'd have to travel some way to get it - some EU countries do provide Sinopharm, Hungary or Slovakia, not sure which. Alternatively, you could wait for VALNEVA, which is also based on the inactivated virus, and is undergoing trials as we speak. From what I've read, it will be manufactured in Scotland and you might have to wait until September or October for it - google Valneva.

Love your moniker by the way, that's how I feel most of the time![/quote]
Thanks, glad it’s not just me . DS tested positive with both the lateral flow and PCR tests, so we can only assume that he was positive. However can’t be 100% sure without an antibody test. Like you said, it’s his decision about whether or not to get the vaccine.

@In2mindsaaarrgghh

Thanks for your responses everyone. What an interesting mix of views. It seems that when it comes to vaccinating the young, things aren’t as clear cut. DS is going to University in the autumn so I think this will have the biggest bearing on his decision about the vaccine. It looks like the government are “blackmailing” the young to get the vaccine, with the introduction of Covid passports for clubs etc, which may ultimately work. I personally think a negative test, is a better indicator of your Covid status than whether you’ve had the vaccine. Immunity wanes anyway and we’ll all need regular boosters to be truly protected, which will never happen, nor do I want either of those things to happen. The bottom line is we are all going to have to live with this virus and get on with our lives.

Agree with you about the blackmail and the testing. Especially now that we can see that double vaccinated people are still contracting and spreading delta. It’s great that their disease is milder but it makes no sense to give them a passport that excludes them from testing when they can still be a risk to others.