World Health Organisation criticises UK reopening and says it's 'too early to talk about freedom'

[UndercoverToad]

The WHO has taken a strong stance against England's plans for reopening over the last few days, and a spokesperson has used perhaps some of the strongest words yet.

Dr David Nabarro, the WHO's special envoy on COVID-19, said the "pandemic is advancing ferociously around the world" and "I don't think we've anywhere near got through the worst of it".

Asked about the government's switch to personal responsibility, he told Radio 4's Today programme: "All this doesn't quite fit with the position that was taken by Britain, along with other nations, some months ago when there was a real effort to try to prevent large numbers of people getting the disease, partly because of the risk of death and partly because of the recognition of the risk of long COVID.

"It's necessary to be unequivocal on this particular challenge. What does urging caution mean? It's important that everybody knows the best possible advice on how to prevent themselves being infected.

"I accept that vaccination has changed the nature of the equation in the UK but quite honestly from any point of view it's too early to be talking about massive relaxation or freedom when the outbreak curve is on such a sharp ascent.

"Yes, relax, but don't have these mixed messages about what's going on. This dangerous virus hasn't gone away, it's variants are coming back and are threatening those who have already been vaccinated - we have to take it seriously."

@Delatron

Nobody seems to be able to answer that *@Blessex* I’ve asked the question on multiple threads.

When would be a better time people?

What would be the consequences if we didn't fully open up (retained masks, a degree of social distancing, didn't open nightclubs) before next spring? Not lockdown, but retaining some measures.

I haven't heard the pros/cons of this option - there are obviously huge pros in terms of protecting people's health and the NHS, avoiding variants that may threaten education and health further. I imagine the cons are mainly economic, but would like more information.

Not all countries are opening up entirely now - it's clearly not the only option. The government has presented it this way and many people have bought this unquestioningly as far as I can tell.

My own suspicion is that it has more to do with a very right wing Tory party putting pressure on Johnson to open up, and not really the careful weighing of pros/cons that people imagine.

Still no answer on when would actually be a preferable time to open up. You can’t argue for restrictions to continue without answering this!

@Delatron

Still no answer on when would actually be a preferable time to open up. You can’t argue for restrictions to continue without answering this!

Yeah surely when millions of people have had vaccinations, in the summer, and when schools are breaking up for the summer is a great time. Not sure when the mythical time will be otherwise, and people are acting as if masks will be illegal to wear- i bet a lot of people will still wear them in shops

Well, Scotland seems to have found a way.

We don't know that they've found a 'way'. Just because they've taken a slightly different approach doesn't mean it will turn out to be the right one.

Incremental lifting over the summer, as is going to happen in other parts of the UK diesnt fit the (self-serving) question that the government is using as a rhetorical device

But restrictions have been lifted incrementally, going back to March. It's already high summer. A few weeks from now, as I said, we'll have the 'we need to prioritise schools' argument coming into play. There really is no 'right' time, but this is as good if not better, than any of the other suggestions.

@IcedPurple agree entirely! The virus acts in a very - animalistic way. The thing that has separated us from other animal species - is ‘civilisation’, ‘manners’, ‘socialism’. These factors are our best defence against Covid.

In recent years, due to ‘success’ - Western cultures have abandoned the need for socialism? Whereas other cultures - particularly those still faced with a need for collectivism to fight disease - have recognised the need for a collective approach?

@Delatron

Still no answer on when would actually be a preferable time to open up. You can’t argue for restrictions to continue without answering this!

As I said, never.

Because there is not a good time to this cliff edge approach.

I would emulate the Scottish approach.

Which does not hinge on answering the Biris's rhetorical question, but continues with a step by step approach

[quote UndercoverToad]@IcedPurple agree entirely! The virus acts in a very - animalistic way. The thing that has separated us from other animal species - is ‘civilisation’, ‘manners’, ‘socialism’. These factors are our best defence against Covid.

In recent years, due to ‘success’ - Western cultures have abandoned the need for socialism? Whereas other cultures - particularly those still faced with a need for collectivism to fight disease - have recognised the need for a collective approach?[/quote]
OK.

So what are all these 'other cultures' which have done a wondrous job with Covid?

I need names.

[quote UndercoverToad]@IcedPurple agree entirely! The virus acts in a very - animalistic way. The thing that has separated us from other animal species - is ‘civilisation’, ‘manners’, ‘socialism’. These factors are our best defence against Covid.

In recent years, due to ‘success’ - Western cultures have abandoned the need for socialism? Whereas other cultures - particularly those still faced with a need for collectivism to fight disease - have recognised the need for a collective approach?[/quote]
How about the flip side

Working vaccines

Maybe the competitive approach helped those countries who managed it - with high efficacy

Social distancing in particular has massive negatives impacts. You say “economic “ like it is some nebulous abstract concept. It’s actually all entertainment venues, theatres, cinemas, all pubs, wine bars, all education establishments, Restaurants, museums, many other cultural establishments being able to run at a profit or a loss or function at all. It’s billons of pounds and hundreds of businesses and thousands of jobs. Keeping “ social distancing “ has huge implications. It’s not a small thing.

@sashagabadon

Social distancing in particular has massive negatives impacts. You say “economic “ like it is some nebulous abstract concept. It’s actually all entertainment venues, theatres, cinemas, all pubs, wine bars, all education establishments, Restaurants, museums, many other cultural establishments being able to run at a profit or a loss or function at all. It’s billons of pounds and hundreds of businesses and thousands of jobs. Keeping “ social distancing “ has huge implications. It’s not a small thing.

I hate the way people say I'd like to keep masks... oh and social distancing too. The former (arguably) is relatively minor but the latter, as you say, has huge implications for so many people and businesses. It's not just standing on a yellow marker in the Aldi queue or not having someone 'breathe down your neck' as MNers love to say.

I wonder if they'd be happy to have their income slashed by 50%, while their outgoings stay the same or even increase? I doubt it.

Many African countries. Vietnam. New Zealand. Singapore. Japan. China. Korea.

@IcedPurple

@UndercoverToad

Many African countries. Vietnam. New Zealand. Singapore. Japan. China. Korea.

@IcedPurple

What a silly list.

China - which let's not forget started the whole thing - has an appalling human rights record and nobody trusts their stats. NZ has a similar political system to the UK but has the advantage of being in the middle of the South Pacific, several hours flight from its nearest neighbour. Japan has very poor vaccination rates and is currently going through a resurgance, so much so that spectators will be banned at the Olympics. SK's 'success' is basd on a Track and Trace system which needs privacy (or lack thereof) laws which would never be permitted in Europe. As for the 'many African countries', they tend to have much younger populations and I'm not sure their poltiical systems are worthy of emulation.

@IcedPurple it’s not a silly list at all! It shows how intervention and collectivism has worked! Of COURSE I don’t want a communist state such as China - but! if their strategy has kept Covid at bay, shouldn’t it be worth considering?

Yep hate the way people are implying that keeping ‘low’ level restrictions like social distancing won’t have a massive impact in the economy in many sectors that are already decimated.

Once you remove restrictions cases will rise. When would you like this to happen? Never can’t really be an answer.

I really think we are beyond the stage of trying to emulate China. I can’t even entertain these arguments. Seriously?!

WE have the advantage of being an island and implementing border control, but we delayed this, and other measures - to our detriment.

@UndercoverToad

WE have the advantage of being an island and implementing border control, but we delayed this, and other measures - to our detriment.

Yes we are a small island that's hugely connected to other countries via trade and a transport hub. Places like Australia were able to close their borders as geographically they are pretty far from other counties so don't rely as heavily on imports for essentials.

@Delatron - no way am I advocating that we emulate China in pandemic-free times. But - surely we should recognise that their collective response has been successful?

@Noterook - which is absolutely to our advantage in pandemic free times.

Surely we should have seen the need to close our borders earlier to control infection rate?

Once again we are an international embarrassment.

@UndercoverToad

WE have the advantage of being an island and implementing border control, but we delayed this, and other measures - to our detriment.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not an island.

Amazing how people are ignorant about this.

@Mixmeup

Once again we are an international embarrassment.

Oh fgs. As if.

[quote UndercoverToad]@IcedPurple it’s not a silly list at all! It shows how intervention and collectivism has worked! Of COURSE I don’t want a communist state such as China - but! if their strategy has kept Covid at bay, shouldn’t it be worth considering?[/quote]
How about their 'strategy' which allowed Covid to spread to humans in the first place?

You want to emulate that too?

Of cours the govt also has to think of the economy. I'm astonished that, a year on, some people still think 'the economy' is some abstract notion that only involves banks and commodities traders.

I think most of us realise that the economy is entwined with health and that the ‘we need to restart the economy while ignoring the global pandemic we’re in the middle of’ isn’t necessarily going to go the way you think.

I suspect the winter lockdown is set in stone at this point, the only question left is how early, how hard and how long do we need to close everything for?

I feel like it’s 2020 again
Undercover, not sure if you were here then but there’s loads of threads from March 2020 onwards that discusses to the nth degree the “should we be likeChina” “why can’t we close our borders like NZ” Have a read!