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Original poster

Vaccine hesitancy and Autism

97 replies

IknowThisIsRidiculous · 09/07/2021 18:56

NC for this as I... er...know this is ridiculous. Apologies in advance for the length.

Background: My DS is almost 20. He was a baby and due the MMR around the time of the Andrew Wakefield scandal. My exH had health anxiety and was paranoid about all the MMR/Autism stuff so we didn't give him the MMR but went with single jabs. Then at the age of 10 he was going on a school trip to France, needed to have had the MMR as there was an outbreak of measles in France at the time so I gave him the booster (we were NC with ex by that time).

Fast forward: around the age of 15/16 I started to think that my DS may be on the spectrum due to some of the characteristics that were becoming stronger (classic ASC traits) and started to do some research. Nothing had ever been raised at school or by any childcarers (he's high functioning). I tried to discuss it with him but he dismissed it and that was the end of the subject.

Fast forward again to now. For various reasons, DS has come to the conclusion that he is on the spectrum (I agree). He has done an online assessment which has confirmed to him that there is a "high probability" but he doesn't (yet) want to consider getting a diagnosis. He has really struggled with Covid and is completely against getting the vaccine (he's got sucked into the anti-vax conspiracy) and while doing his research he has come across the Andrew Wakefield/Autism/Vaccine information.

Now here's the question: DS is convinced that having the MMR at 10 'gave' him Autism as the 'symptoms' didn't really become obvious until he was well into his teens. I've told him that that's not the case as he definitely had the characteristics before the age of 10 but I just didn't know enough about it at that stage. BUT - I'm struggling to convince him of this as I'm not convinced myself that he did.

Has anyone else's ASC DC only displayed traits in their teens?

ps. I don't for one minute believe the Andrew Wakefield stuff.

OP posts:
speckledostrichegg · 09/07/2021 23:19

oh and increased parental age

speckledostrichegg · 09/07/2021 23:33

this doesn't mean that the things listed are causal, but it does demonstrate how it's been possible to find environmental factors that are linked to autism risk, and vaccination is not one of them

BlackeyedSusan · 09/07/2021 23:35

@Stormer no problem. we are technically still married but not together, we are just both really shit at paperwork!

BlackeyedSusan · 09/07/2021 23:37

interesting/ dad was one of the youngest of 8 or so kids anmd both my parents were well into their thirties.

Backofbeyond50 · 10/07/2021 00:13

Dd2 received a probably not very robust diagnosis of HFA during Lockdown at age 15. Tbh there were clues with some sensory issues at 7ish but never received a diagnosis.

toastantea · 10/07/2021 00:17

Dd2 received a probably not very robust diagnosis of HFA during Lockdown at age 15

What does this mean?

DownSideUpped · 10/07/2021 00:18

BlackeyedSusan

I'm autistic. MMR didn't exist then.

Many children are born deaf, blind or both. It can be inherited and it can be due to damage to eyes and ears. Measles can cause deafness. MMR can also cause deafness. Just because deafness can be hereditary it does not automatically follow that it is the only cause.

DownSideUpped · 10/07/2021 00:22

A Japanese article on pubmed:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1960595/

LetsPlayBamboozled · 10/07/2021 00:28

I haven't read the full thread but it's worth having your ds read about how the brain develops or should develop. The area that's responsible for Executive Function only starts to develop once kids are a bit older and then it rewires itself when you're a teen. I'm explaining this terribly but I am autistic and I struggle hugely with E.F. However, not only does this develop later than say communication abilities you don't need it till you're older so that's when it can become apparent it's not quite right eg. Only once I was 12 did I need to know my own timetable, get myself to the right classroom, remember each subject's book and organise my homework... At primary school I breezed through, only later when I needed to do things for myself did the cracks become evident.

Backofbeyond50 · 10/07/2021 00:36

Dd2 received a probably not very robust diagnosisof HFA during Lockdown at age 15
@toastantea it was done largely based on parent questionnaire and the opinion of a psychologist but there were no proper face to face assessments.

speckledostrichegg · 10/07/2021 00:39

[quote DownSideUpped]A Japanese article on pubmed:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1960595/[/quote]
@DownSideUpped

I don't understand how this is relevant to a discussion on vaccines falsely linked to autism?

You've posted the abstract to a case study from 1991 where one child was reported to have developed meningitis after the MMR vaccine which led to deafness as a complication.

Firstly, this is an established but extremely rare complication of the MMR vaccine, and secondly, meningitis doesn't cause autism?! As stated, it's a neurodevelopment disorder with a strong genetic component. There is some evidence for environmental risk factors (mainly prenatal), but absolutely none for vaccination.

DownSideUpped · 10/07/2021 00:45

speckledostrichegg
In response to the people saying so and so was autistic before the MMR existed so it can’t be caused by the MMR. I’ve just given an example of something that can be both hereditary and caused by illness, damage and indeed vaccines. Why can autism not have more than a single cause?

DownSideUpped · 10/07/2021 00:46

I mean autism in general, not that individual person’s autism, clearly.

speckledostrichegg · 10/07/2021 00:49

@DownSideUpped

speckledostrichegg In response to the people saying so and so was autistic before the MMR existed so it can’t be caused by the MMR. I’ve just given an example of something that can be both hereditary and caused by illness, damage and indeed vaccines. Why can autism not have more than a single cause?
I feel my previous reply to your post which you may have missed is relevant here. Autism has both genetic and environmental components, and vaccination has been established not to be a risk factor.

@DownSideUpped

Autism encompasses so many different traits, behaviours and disabilities that it’s impossible to say “it” is or isn’t caused by one thing or another.

This isn't strictly true. The fact that it is diagnosed via behavioural criteria makes it's more difficult than if it was via a biomarker (like a brain scan or a blood test) but there are validated scales for diagnoses.

There are replicated genome-wide association studies which demonstrate the strong polygenic component of the condition.

There has been less success in identifying environmental risk factors (mainly because research was so strongly focussed on genetics due to the high heritability) but there are several candidates of interest with a strong evidence base including maternal infection, vitamin D deficiency in pregnancy, prenatal tobacco exposure and birth complications. There is absolutely no evidence for a link between vaccination and autism.

DownSideUpped · 10/07/2021 00:51

speckledostrichegg
Yes I can see that you agree it can have more than a single cause yet further up thread there were several posters claiming it is something you are born with. I wasn’t responding to your comment.

DownSideUpped · 10/07/2021 00:56

speckledostrichegg

From a anecdotal experience it seems to be brain damaged that gets misdiagnosed as autism. There is an action: vaccination (or accidental double does in the case of my friend) followed by a reaction, which in my friend was brain damage which caused him to lose his ability to walk and talk at age 4. He was diagnosed with autism (though later after he’d recovered his speech and ability to walk) the diagnosis was changed to Aspergers (which wasn’t under the same umbrella at the time).

Beeboopbop · 10/07/2021 03:04

I only realised I was autistic in my 30's. However Autism is a life long condition from birth. For some people it is more obvious than others. A lot of autistic people get "missed" when they're younger. My traits were always there but it wasn't until secondary school that I started to feel that I was "different". I think in the teens can really be when social dynamics change and differences can really start to show.

Double covid jabbed now and it hasn't made me "more" autistic Grin

Sleepyblueocean · 10/07/2021 05:45

It can become more obvious at that time. There are several children within my extended family including my ds, who were diagnosed at an early age but there is another who is 11 where the parents are now thinking about it. This child in their younger primary years, did not have any obvious signs but the social interaction difficulties are now obvious. With my own son the challenges got greater when puberty started.

Nikki078 · 10/07/2021 08:24

I'd let him check this part of DSM criteria for ASD which is there for a reason - social demands increase in teenage years puberty. A lot of people are diagnosed in adulthood, even late adulthood, I'd say asd needs to be very very obvious to be diagnosed in childhood. I cannot believe all this AW rubbish is still around.... I guess it means there's something people can be angry at and blame for their difficulties ("they caused my autism") rather than having to accept they are a part of their neurodevelopmental/genetic make up ("this is me").

". Symptoms must be present in the early developmental period (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities or may be masked by learned strategies in later life)"

Original poster
IknowThisIsRidiculous · 10/07/2021 08:58

I guess it means there's something people can be angry at and blame for their difficulties ("they caused my autism") rather than having to accept they are a part of their neurodevelopmental/genetic make up ("this is me").

This definitely applies to my DS right now. He's so early on his journey of realising that he's neurodiverse that he wants something to blame. But this is something he does generally. If he starts sneezing it's because that person who was sneezing when he walked past them on the street "gave him a cold". If he has a dodgy tummy, he refuses to ever again eat the last thing he ate because it "made him sick".

On a lighter note, a couple of years ago he said to me (I can't remember the context) that "everyone else is weird, I'm the only normal one". Smile

OP posts:
JulesRimetStillGleaming · 10/07/2021 09:17

I was diagnosed at 40 and my difficulties only really became very apparent once I started working. I was able to mask quite well at school and university because I was very academic and I wasn't required to do much social interaction to get good grades. Suddenly at work it was all about interpersonal relationships and I couldn't control my anxiety about that as well as I had previously.

So yes, it's totally possible for traits not to become a huge problem until the environment changes/ expectations change.

The Andrew Wakefield stuff is totally bonkers but I still have friends on social media who are totally anti vax and trot it all out.

JulesRimetStillGleaming · 10/07/2021 09:25

Just having flashbacks of having to cold call people for information in my first life job shudder

Poppetlove · 15/02/2022 21:43

What other vaccines have been researched for a link to autism?
Links please.

riveted1 · 15/02/2022 22:07

@Poppetlove

What other vaccines have been researched for a link to autism? Links please.
Pretty much the entire childhood schedule.

Vaccines do not cause autism. As described upthread, it is a neurodevelopmental condition with a strong genetic component. There have been some evidence for specific environmental risk factors, but these tend to be prenatal (i.e., maternal vitamin D levels for example).

pucelleauxblanchesmains · 15/02/2022 22:32

I'm autistic and I don't think it's unusual to realise as a teen or older that what you thought of as traits everyone had may be autism, especially if it runs in the family (not saying it does in yours but it certainly does in mine so my benchmark for normal was quite skewed iyswim).
But also, while the MMR jab clearly didn't give him autism, even if it somehow had done, then it's not like the COVID vaccines are going to give him extra autism, the autism ship would have long since sailed for him!