Vaccine hesitancy and Autism

[IknowThisIsRidiculous]

NC for this as I... er...know this is ridiculous. Apologies in advance for the length.

Background: My DS is almost 20. He was a baby and due the MMR around the time of the Andrew Wakefield scandal. My exH had health anxiety and was paranoid about all the MMR/Autism stuff so we didn't give him the MMR but went with single jabs. Then at the age of 10 he was going on a school trip to France, needed to have had the MMR as there was an outbreak of measles in France at the time so I gave him the booster (we were NC with ex by that time).

Fast forward: around the age of 15/16 I started to think that my DS may be on the spectrum due to some of the characteristics that were becoming stronger (classic ASC traits) and started to do some research. Nothing had ever been raised at school or by any childcarers (he's high functioning). I tried to discuss it with him but he dismissed it and that was the end of the subject.

Fast forward again to now. For various reasons, DS has come to the conclusion that he is on the spectrum (I agree). He has done an online assessment which has confirmed to him that there is a "high probability" but he doesn't (yet) want to consider getting a diagnosis. He has really struggled with Covid and is completely against getting the vaccine (he's got sucked into the anti-vax conspiracy) and while doing his research he has come across the Andrew Wakefield/Autism/Vaccine information.

Now here's the question: DS is convinced that having the MMR at 10 'gave' him Autism as the 'symptoms' didn't really become obvious until he was well into his teens. I've told him that that's not the case as he definitely had the characteristics before the age of 10 but I just didn't know enough about it at that stage. BUT - I'm struggling to convince him of this as I'm not convinced myself that he did.

Has anyone else's ASC DC only displayed traits in their teens?

ps. I don't for one minute believe the Andrew Wakefield stuff.

@Itscoldouthere that's helpful to know about your DS. Mine is so early in the realisation that I truly believe that he'll get to that stage of acceptance. I've realised it for a while and the analogy I use is that, if he was realising he was gay, he's not ready to come out yet, but he will one day.

@BlueSurfer

I’d point out to him the fact. Andrew Wakefield was struck off the medical register because he wrote about a study of eight (yes, just eight!) children who he purported to have a link between MMR and ASD. It was then revealed that he had been paid to provide evidence for parents of autistic children suing vaccine manufacturers for compensation. He was completely discredited and is considered a disgrace to the medical profession.

This. Then let him know that despite trying no one could replicate his fake findings...surprise surprise Tell him Andrew Wakefield has earned millions from peddling cures and talking about autism despite being a fraud and struck off, he has a band of followers. There are other snake oil peddling millionaires milking autism and worried parents too. Disgrace

@IknowThisIsRidiculous my DS has been very cautious about Covid, but he doesn’t go out that much, doesn’t drink etc, but he is living in a student house and as he’s a Biology student he very pro science and vaccination so that hasn’t presented a problem to him and he’s had his first vaccination, but I think he will keep on wearing a mask when out for quite some time.
I watched a very interesting documentary on TV a month or so ago about the Anti-vax movement and AW was a big presence, maybe he could watch something like that? I’ll see if I can find out what it was called.

My DS has Cerebral Palsy and although Autism is not brain damage (am I right?) the brain is affected I think (again, am I right?)

I've always avoided vaccines for DS because I've read that they can exacerbate whatever problems in the brain that are already there. My DS has ASD and ADHD tendencies and I haven't wanted them to get worse.

So possibly, OP, the tendency towards autism was already there - maybe the vaccine worsened it. People will say it didn't. But how can anyone know either way?

@Dustyboots

My DS has Cerebral Palsy and although Autism is not brain damage (am I right?) the brain is affected I think (again, am I right?)

I've always avoided vaccines for DS because I've read that they can exacerbate whatever problems in the brain that are already there. My DS has ASD and ADHD tendencies and I haven't wanted them to get worse.

So possibly, OP, the tendency towards autism was already there - maybe the vaccine worsened it. People will say it didn't. But how can anyone know either way?

So possibly, OP, the tendency towards autism was already there - maybe the vaccine worsened it. People will say it didn't. But how can anyone know either way?

Because Wakefield's claims were false, and a huge amount of intensive research has failed to replicate the association between MMR or other vaccines and autism.

No autism is not brain damage. It's a neurodevelopmental condition that is highly heritable (so genetics play a key role), with some emerging environmental risk factors such as the in utero environment.

So possibly, OP, the tendency towards autism was already there - maybe the vaccine worsened it. People will say it didn't. But how can anyone know either way?

Extensive research 🤷🏻‍♀️

People don't have tendencies towards autism - you are either autistic or you are not.

My ds was not diagnosed till he was 13 though put on the waiting list for assessment at 11.. it has become more obvious as he got older though diagnosed with adhd at 9 so lots of traits hidden by adhd

People don't have tendencies towards autism - you are either autistic or you are not.

Actually we all have autistic traits don't we. That's why it's called a spectrum - we're all on that spectrum to some degree.

autisticandunapologetic.com/2019/03/16/is-everyone-on-the-autism-spectrum/

DS was diagnosed with ASD at the age of 9, but to me he has been 'wired differently' from day one, well before any vaccinations came his way. Obviously that's hugely subjective and with the benefit of hindsight. I also have an autistic family member who did not receive any childhood vaccinations.

To be diagnosed with autism, the signs have to be present from early childhood, so it would not be possible to suddenly 'get it' at 10, there would have to be traits present from an earlier age. Sounds like your son is struggling and looking for an explanation/something to blame and he is certainly not the only young person to feel strongly about the vaccine. Wakefield is a twat

[quote Dustyboots]People don't have tendencies towards autism - you are either autistic or you are not.

Actually we all have autistic traits don't we. That's why it's called a spectrum - we're all on that spectrum to some degree.

autisticandunapologetic.com/2019/03/16/is-everyone-on-the-autism-spectrum/[/quote]
yup autism can be considered a continuous trait that extends into the general population

still definitely isn't caused by the MMR or other vaccines though

Because Wakefield's claims were false, and a huge amount of intensive research has failed to replicate the association between MMR or other vaccines and autism.

But many vaccines cross the blood brain barrier. I've been advised by NHS doctors not to vaccinate my son. He must be protected by herd immunity they have said, because of the risk of the vaccine crossing the blood brain barrier and making his existing problems worse.

@Dustyboots

Because Wakefield's claims were false, and a huge amount of intensive research has failed to replicate the association between MMR or other vaccines and autism.

But many vaccines cross the blood brain barrier. I've been advised by NHS doctors not to vaccinate my son. He must be protected by herd immunity they have said, because of the risk of the vaccine crossing the blood brain barrier and making his existing problems worse.

Without knowing the medical history of your son I have no idea why NHS staff would advise he isn't vaccinated

I can guarantee it isn't because they're worried it would cause or worsen symptoms of ASD, ADHD or other neurodevelopmental conditions though

I can guarantee it isn't because they're worried it would cause or worsen symptoms of ASD, ADHD or other neurodevelopmental conditions though

You can't guarantee that @speckledostrichegg because that is what they said to me.

[quote Dustyboots]People don't have tendencies towards autism - you are either autistic or you are not.

Actually we all have autistic traits don't we. That's why it's called a spectrum - we're all on that spectrum to some degree.

autisticandunapologetic.com/2019/03/16/is-everyone-on-the-autism-spectrum/[/quote]

No. Just no.

We don't all have autistic traits. We are not all on a fucking spectrum lined up from best to worst.

The 'spectrum' isn't about how autistic someone is, it's about how one persons autism affects them.

Please stop being so disrespectful and dismissive of something so absolutely serious.

Oh, and your link is bollocks. American bollocks at that.

@Dustyboots

I can guarantee it isn't because they're worried it would cause or worsen symptoms of ASD, ADHD or other neurodevelopmental conditions though

You can't guarantee that @speckledostrichegg because that is what they said to me.

The NHS recommends all childhood vaccinations for kids with ASD and ADHD, as it is not a contraindication.

If staff told you otherwise, that's incorrect.

No you can’t get it at 10. BUT if your child was inadvertently getting most of their needs met because their school situation suited them, and/or they’re intelligent and ‘high functioning’ enough to mask, then it may not seem they have it.

As they get older, life becomes more complicated, secondary school is a lot of effort compared to the simplicity of primary school, and puberty is a head fuck - literally, your brain is changing and hormones are kicking in.

We always felt something was up with DD, but she didn’t show traits at school - or rather, not regularly and consistently. Instead she’d have meltdowns at home. You have to demonstrate traits in both settings to be diagnosed. But in her first year at a large secondary school, the traits came out. She got diagnosed finally at 14, after 2x being assessed for ASD and the consultants saying no.

The same could be similar for your son. At 10 that’s when the hormones are starting, and they’re getting more independence and having to navigate social situations by themselves. At secondary school you’re suddenly moving around from class to class between lessons with different teachers - so much more transition and so much more things to remember. Then there’s the sensory overwhelm of things like noisy corridors. It’s mentally and emotionally exhausting.

I queried it for my ds with camhs and school nurse..no ussues with them

DD also has ADHD. As do I and DS. I was diagnosed as an adult.

Both DD and DS were diagnosed with it in Year 7 (so they were 12 and 11 respectively). With both I’d been pushing for a diagnosis for some time. Both are v bright and were always in top sets through primary school. If neurodiversity doesn’t affect their academic learning at primary school, it doesn’t get as easily picked up as if they have learning difficulties.

Executive functioning issues are a lot more obvious in secondary school, especially as the pressure increases and they have to be more self-motivated. I certainly struggled in university!

I'm autistic. MMR didn't exist then.

DC both autistic showed traits before MMR.

Their dad is autistic has autistic traits...

My dad was routine based and fixed in his ideas. And had sensory issues.

Now where do you think our kids got their autism?

And yes we’ve all had our MMR and other vaccinations, but genetics is the reason there’s neurodiversity in my family.

Like @BlackeyedSusan I also have a DH who is autistic has autistic traits.

Sorry @BlackeyedSusan I said DH but then saw you’d said your DC’s dad, which may not be the same thing.

NO we are not all on a spectrum from not autistic to very autistic.

Autistic people are on a spectrum of how it affects them individually.

If you aren't autistic, you aren't on the spectrum. You are neurotypical.

I don’t know about the autism aspect but the mmr caused high temps and tics in my dd that are only starting to subside now that she’s 12.

Re Wakefield, his study didn’t find any links with autism though it’s widely claimed that it did. It’s available online to read.

Autism encompasses so many different traits, behaviours and disabilities that it’s impossible to say “it” is or isn’t caused by one thing or another. It could be caused by many different things. You can’t claim autism is something you are born with, as it simply hasn’t been proven.

A friend of mine was given two mmr shots within the space of a couple of weeks at age 3 or 4 (accidentally by nurse who didn’t realise he’d had it) and was brain damaged. He was developing perfectly before then and had to have a lot of rehab to learn to walk/ talk again. He was later diagnosed with “autism” which manifested itself as typical Aspberger syndrome. Highly intelligent but no social skills or self awareness whatsoever.

@DownSideUpped

Autism encompasses so many different traits, behaviours and disabilities that it’s impossible to say “it” is or isn’t caused by one thing or another.

This isn't strictly true. The fact that it is diagnosed via behavioural criteria makes it's more difficult than if it was via a biomarker (like a brain scan or a blood test) but there are validated scales for diagnoses.

There are replicated genome-wide association studies which demonstrate the strong polygenic component of the condition.

There has been less success in identifying environmental risk factors (mainly because research was so strongly focussed on genetics due to the high heritability) but there are several candidates of interest with a strong evidence base including maternal infection, vitamin D deficiency in pregnancy, prenatal tobacco exposure and birth complications. There is absolutely no evidence for a link between vaccination and autism.