One dose 10% protection!

[penni00]

The Telegraph, this evening, is saying one dose of AZ/Pfizer only gives 10% protection against the Delta.
Is this accurate?
I had AZ in March with prolonged nasty side effects, and may not be able to have any further vaccine. I feel 'damaged' by the vaccine, please tell me this is not all for just 10% protection?

@penni00 of course. I had headache, muscle pain, severe fatigue, sweats, dizziness, light sensitivity. Lasted badly for about 6 days and then calmed down completely after 2 weeks. Second dose, woke up at 2am sweated for about half an hour felt fine!

The JCVI interim advice on boosters is here:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-interim-advice-on-a-potential-coronavirus-covid-19-booster-vaccine-programme-for-winter-2021-to-2022/jcvi-interim-advice-potential-covid-19-booster-vaccine-programme-winter-2021-to-2022

I think it's looking likely, at least for group 1 and probably group 2 as well

I would wonder whether your nasty side effects were indicative of your immune system having a very strong reaction to the vaccine. Personally I had my first AZ in May and 12 hours later I was shivering, raging temperature, felt like my entire body had packed up and couldn’t get up so dh had to drag me up to visit the toilet. I felt so ill I couldn’t get all the words out that I wanted to and it hurt to talk. I don’t know anyone IRL who reacted as severely as I did - dh went same day, same batch as me and almost nothing happened to him - bit tired. I didn’t hesitate to have my 2nd jab and after that one I was utterly wiped out for a day and couldn’t do anything but it was way less severe than the first.

Surely this is against infection/symptomatic disease? The figure that really matters is it’s effectiveness against severe disease/hospitalisation/death. It doesn’t matter so much if people get a mild dose (inconvenience and/or financial implications of isolating aside), as long as hospitalisation and deaths remain low.

I had a terrible reaction too

Day 1 ached all over, sore throat, cough
Day 2, stomach pains, throwing up nausea
Day 3 more of the same but a bit reduced
Days 4 and 5 extreme tiredness.

I’m ultra sensitive to everything tjough

I had chills and tiredness exhaustion dose 1.
Maybe a tiny bit tired on dose 2.
Dp had tiredness dose 1 not had dose 2.

However we had covid probably in apr20. And that was chills leg aches but then breathlessness etc etc so definitely the vax was actually ok because it was only the flu like bits not the severe illness.

I am still with side effects after 16 weeks. I had 11 weeks of headaches, many weeks of light sensitivity, wobbly legs, tingling all through body. Headaches and eyes have improved greatly, but tingling persists. It is like electric currents running around my body. Therefore, I am unsure about further vaccine, so really want to know how I stand with my one dose of AZ.

The AZ website says one dose AZ protection lasts at least a year. I do not understand at what level of protection though - the AZ website says antibodies remain elevated from baseline for at least one year following a single dose. But what does 'baseline' mean exactly? (They refer to AZ as Vaxzevria).

Anyone understand the 'antibodies remain elevated from baseline' and can you explain what the baseline is for me please?

MacNCheese is Twitter's equivalent of the "Good News Thread" - cherry-picking out the few encouraging figures and ignoring the wider picture.

Or rather her facts don't support your guesswork @NannyAndJohn

I would look at getting an antibody test, rather than relying on statistics.

10% protection against what?
Symptomatic disease?
Hospitalisation?
Zombie apocalypse?

MacNCheese is Twitter's equivalent of the "Good News Thread" - cherry-picking out the few encouraging figures and ignoring the wider picture

Meow.
So says the person that predicted a bajillion cases a day by now based on no evidence whatsoever…

How do you feel damaged by a vaccine?

@PinkSparklyPussyCat

MacNCheese is Twitter's equivalent of the "Good News Thread" - cherry-picking out the few encouraging figures and ignoring the wider picture.

Or rather her facts don't support your guesswork @NannyAndJohn

Her threads are always very positive however they seem to be backed up by research. They certainly make me feel more positive.

Well damaged by the vaccine or damaged by my reaction to the vaccine, I don't know. But 16 weeks on, although improved I am not as I was before the jab.

@amicissimma

As so often, there is more to this than the thread title suggests.

The study was looking at the effect of antibodies from recovered/vaccinated individuals on the various virus strains. It used the individuals' serum. But the immune system does not just work on antibodies alone - there is a whole arsenal of weapons involved, including the T and B cells that make the news. So we learn more about the effects of vaccination by looking at real world data on infection rates, hospitalisation rates and death rates (and the relationship between them) in previously infected and in vaccinated individuals against the unvaccinated.

Using serum antibodies alone (which was all that was studied) neutralisation of the Delta variant was indeed low after recovering from Covid or a single AZ or Pfizer vaccination. But 4 weeks after the 2nd dose "81-100% (Pfizer) and 95-100% (AZ) neutralized any of the 4 strains".

On the subject of JCVI issuing interim advice on COVID-19 booster vaccination, the efficacy of the vaccines over time and on variants is being carefully and continuously monitored. The linked article clearly states "The JCVI’s interim advice is that, should a booster programme be required, and lays out the order of administration of the programme. Ie, the JCVI is preparing for the need, should it arise. It does not say that boosters are definitely known to be needed at the moment, so it does not say that protection is waning. But being prepared is better than just hanging about hoping for the best and then scrambling to put a programme in place if the need arises, I would say.

It is so nice to actually see some sense on these threads so thank you for this @amicissimma

I fear that the vast majority that are frothing about vaccines being less effective won't take the time to read this and understand exactly what it means.

The disadvantage of having these studies and scientific papers available for the world to see is that the majority don't have a clue what any of it means. They pick out a few sentences without looking at the context and start threads with alarming titles.
Many of the people that are on here daily spreading doom don't have the comprehension skills to read the OP of a thread on mUmsnet properly never mind anything remotely complex.

I can only give anecdotal evidence.

Last week 9 of dd's classmates tested positive (19-21 year olds) including dd

7 of them were unvaccinated and have been feeling pretty rough, coughing, struggling to breath, exhausted, being sick. Classmates who caught it 3 weeks ago report still being totally wiped out. They are all still testing positive.

Dd's friend has had one dose of the vaccine. She felt like she had a bit of a bad cold.

Dd has had two doses. She was totally asymptomatic. She tested positive on the Saturday, confirmed by pcr but carried on doing daily LFT's She tested negative again from day 5.

Mac N' Chise is a molecular biologist who works in vaccine development for Moderna, so she certainly knows more about vaccines than anyone posting on this forum. It's a good approach emotionally actually, to look on the sunny side, as long as the side remains attached to reality. In her case, it does.

The AZ website says one dose AZ protection lasts at least a year. I do not understand at what level of protection though - the AZ website says antibodies remain elevated from baseline for at least one year following a single dose. But what does 'baseline' mean exactly? (They refer to AZ as Vaxzevria).

Anyone understand the 'antibodies remain elevated from baseline' and can you explain what the baseline is for me please?

@MRex I found Mac N' Chise after someone recommended her Twitter on here. At the time I was getting really down about everything and her positive tweets with statistics to back them up really helped me.

@Pinchoftums

In the news today 97% of USA citizens that died of covid were unvaccinated.

And that information on its own means entirely nothing. If 100% of the population were vaccinated, 100% of deaths would be in vaccinated individuals. The number of deaths would just be far lower.

@penni00

The Telegraph, this evening, is saying one dose of AZ/Pfizer only gives 10% protection against the Delta. Is this accurate? I had AZ in March with prolonged nasty side effects, and may not be able to have any further vaccine. I feel 'damaged' by the vaccine, please tell me this is not all for just 10% protection?

Can you talk to someone about having Pzifer as a 2nd dose?

I know someone who had a bad reaction to AZ as her 1st dose. She was put into the mixed vaccine trial so she could have Pzifer as her 2nd vaccine. Her 1st reaction was so bad she had the 2nd jab in hospital with a crash cart by the side of her (but was fine).

@MRex

Mac N' Chise is a molecular biologist who works in vaccine development for Moderna, so she certainly knows more about vaccines than anyone posting on this forum. It's a good approach emotionally actually, to look on the sunny side, as long as the side remains attached to reality. In her case, it does.

Over the year I have learned from Mumsnet that a world renowned oncologist, to whom many owe their continued lives, is a 'charlatan'; an Oxford professor and clinical epidemiologist is a 'fraud' and a molecular biologist at Moderna is 'Twitter's equivalent of the "Good News Thread'.

It's just as well we have some clever Mumsnetters to keep us on the straight and narrow.

The stats are so variable according to source. Prof John Bell was claiming, in an interview with Canada News, that a third AZ would bring the AZ efficacy higher than Phizers.
See link below, just over 5 mins in.

@YellowBellyCat.

My GP has written a letter saying I can have a Pfizer, but I just don't know.

My Neurologist says the best course of action is on whether I reacted badly to AZ due to ingredient intolerance,( normally at its worst soon after the jab and more common in people who tend to have allergies), in which case switch to Pfizer.
Or if I reacted badly to AZ due to an overactive immune response (this would be likely to build up with side effects progressing over weeks I think he said). This overactive immune response could mean that switching to Pfizer and thus mixing, might be a bad idea, because you need to bear in mind that the mixing trials in the UK showed more side effects - so having a Pfizer after an AZ and mixing, could kick a really big immune response. Possibly too big if a person has already shown an overactive immune response to AZ.

I hope this is handy info for others like me.

So, it is difficult to know what to do, I don't feel brave enough to do AZ again, but mixing might be a bad idea too.
However, I think AZ is harsher regarding side effects anyway, plus in real world, people seem to be mixing without problems.

Let me know if anyone has experience of second dose effects after difficult first dose.

Prof John Bell is an actual immunologist and therefore knows exactly what he's talking about.

It isn't that the stats vary by source, but that variations in trials give different results, especially when those are based on when immune responses are measured.

It's fair to be concerned in your case, it sounds like you're getting some decent information but not actual advice. I'd push them more for advice if I were you; 3 clear options there to avoid any extra doses for a while longer, or go for AZ, or go for Pfizer. It sounds like you should be vaccinated in hospital to be well protected if something went wrong. By the way, there have been some articles suggesting that side effects may be worse at ovulation time, so if you get any other jab try to time it around the end of your period.