Did you request the vaccinator to aspirate?

[Namechanged4thi5]

I watched a Dr. John Campbell video where he goes into detail about how aspirating might reduce potential blood clots. So wondering if anyone requested this?

@HeddaGarbled okay maybe 2 hours training? Or even half a day but I guess still no medical training?

I did my nurse training many moons ago and was taught to aspirates or an IM injection. When I did my COVID-19 vaccinator training we were instructed not to aspirate. The muscle at the top of your arm is large and very minimal risk of hitting any artery or veins. In all my years of giving IMs I have never aspirates blood. More risk of causing pain when aspirating.

@neveradullmoment99 that’s interesting

@neveradullmoment99 thank you- you summarised the video quite well.

Another thing he mentions in the video is that there is a possibility that the deltoid muscle is women have a different form to men- in addition to nerves being in different places due to exercise etc so slightly increased possibility of hitting a nerve.

The people who did my vaccination were clearly straight on the job - they seemed incredibly hesitant. Wasn't the most reassuring experience I've ever had. Would have much preferred a pharmacist....might actually try and switch for second vaccination and try somewhere else. Appreciate the situation, but you know....it being a medical procedure and all.....

@HeddaGarbled

So someone with no medical knowledge possibly with an hour’s training will be giving out vaccines?

No

My DD is a trained vaccinator for SJA and did 40 hours of online learning followed by 8 hours of practical training. Pretty intense. Took weeks to organise.

Mine was done by a pharmacist who was lovely. I do my own sub cut injections and had precisely no training except "watch me" and sent off to do my own! One has to be mixed and drawn and needles swapped, the other is already mixed. Bruise myself occasionally but that's about it

powershowerforanhour

I've seen his name a few times. Seems to have set himself up as the Voice Of Authority on all things covid. No idea if he is or not.

I take what he says with a pinch of salt but I find it quite interesting to watch but do look at different things including indie sage.

What the hell is indie sage?

No, Dr John Campbell is anything but egotistical. He's simply been presenting the data as it arises, and leaves it to the listener to draw their own conclusions from the sources of data he uses. Very nice guy.

He is a retired nurse and nurse teacher with a PhD (hence quite entitled to call himself Dr) but he is not a doctor, as such. He is also not a virologist or an epidemiologist.

He is also someone who has been banging on about ivermectin, from what I've heard. Which has led many in Indonesia astray...

www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-04/indonesia-herd-stupidity-epidemiologist-covid-19-coronavirus/100260404

[quote Namechanged4thi5]@HeddaGarbled okay maybe 2 hours training? Or even half a day but I guess still no medical training?[/quote]
Why would you assume that just because they are a volunteer that they would have no medical training or experience?

People volunteer for all sorts of reasons.

At the beginning of the vaccine drive there were huge complaints about how long and tough the whole application process to become a vaccinator was. They were hardly dragging people in from the streets and giving them a needle.

I was wondering what his PhD was in. I assumed nursing education? It’s presumably outlined clearly on his YouTube channel so that nobody makes the mistake of thinking he’s a medical doctor, or a person with a PhD in epidemiology or another relevant field.

Oh he’s one of the Ivormectin crowd?

I see.

@seven201

My dh aspirates (I didn't know that was its name!) when he does my ivf progesterone injections in my bum. So it must still be current guidance for some IM injections as it's on the leaflet we were given. I don't think it causes any further hurt.

Injections into bum still need to be aspirated because of placement. It’s actually recommended not to use that area anymore because of the proximity to vessels/nerves if possible (but obv there are reasons when its needed).

I had an IM in my bum when I was younger and she hit my sciatic nerve, I couldn’t walk properly for a week and the pain was unbelievable.

Wishing you all the best in your journey

[quote ExcitingTimes2021]@AColdDuncanGoodhew Im Interested to see if aspiration is no longer taught. My copy of the Marsden is the 9th edition and it was published as best practice then. However I believe last year the 10th edition was published, my trust has a subscription to the electronic copy so I’ll have a look tomorrow to see if aspiration is still reccomended. We also have a student on shift tomorrow so I’ll ask them if they are still taught to aspirate during clinical skills!! Just like yourself the majority of injections I administer are SC or IV, I can’t remember the last time I had to administer an IM injection. I haven’t undergone any vaccination training as I don’t need it for my clinical area but there must be some rationale as to why it’s not been taught as part of the vaccination training. X[/quote]
I was reading up some things and aspiration is still recommended for dorsogluteal because of the higher risk of puncturing vessels. Its not recommended as an injection site anymore because of the proximity to the sciatic nerve and the other IM sites dont require aspiration.

Interesting!

I'm a vet nurse and we frequently use the intramuscular route. Always always aspirate, and of course it's to ensure you're not about to inject directly into the blood stream. Vaccinators absolutely should be doing this.

So why don't they?
Such a simple change.

Maybe retraining is the issue.

It's not retraining, it's simply not the recommended way. Imagine retraining 30000 SJA volunteers? We've already had days of on line training & a day of in person training. The NHS training which we all had to do doesn't mention it. It's simply not feasible to suddenly change your mind on how people vaccinate. Particularly if there's no good reason for it. I get my flu vaccination from the GP every year & they never aspirate that.

I’ve given thousands of vaccines, covid and others, I don’t aspirate unless it’s going in the bum. And I don’t like going for the bum but there’s a few drugs I give that are only licensed for that route.

Covid vaccines aside there’s no conclusive one way or the other for the case of aspiration.

I just requested they didn't fuck it up and twang a nerve or something like occ health had done for my Hep B shot which took bloody ages to heal up. Asked for them to do it IN my writing arm as the other arm was still iffy from that one.

Have to say I had the deputy head nurse from the hospital do my first one and she was bloody epic.

While a lot of us do still aspirate there’s really not much point. If your needle’s in a big blood vessel there will be flashback of blood into the syringe. If you’re in a small vessel the negative pressure of aspiration will suck the vessel closed so no blood gets aspirated and you still won’t know. It’s more of a habit from ye days of olde.

I'm a healthcare professional who's been working at the vaccine centres around my regular jobs.

To answer the OP's question - if you asked me to aspirate, I wouldn't do it. This is because it is not currently thought of as best practice (for several reasons), not advocated by NICE or any other professional bodies and not how we are trained to do it. One doctor's (highly questionable) assertions does not change that, and a patient's request doesn't trump my duty to follow guidance and protect my professional integrity.

Yes, lots of volunteers are giving vaccines. How else do you. Think it was rolled out so quickly?

Speed was never the issue - many HCP's were ready and willing and already trained. Cost was. The NHS like free, even at the expense of overall safety.

So someone with no medical knowledge possibly with an hour’s training will be giving out vaccines?

No

If you don't mind me asking @HeddaGarbled - what makes you so sure of that?

We've already had days of on line training & a day of in person training

@Cookerhood - How many days of that training was vaccine, anatomy, contraindication/ pharmacology and vaccine technique specific though rather than generalist (infection control etc)? And how many 'live' patients did you practice on at the in person training?

Most of the NHS training was specific, not general infection control. A lot of the SJA training was first aid. No "live" patients at the training (plastic arms). Then we had to be signed off by healthcare professionals at the vaccination centres.
Honestly, how do people think we have got so many people jabbed?

When I was first nurse training were were taught to slightly pull back before giving an IM injection, to check that you weren’t in a blood vessel.
At some point that changed and we no longer do it.