Did you request the vaccinator to aspirate?

[Namechanged4thi5]

I watched a Dr. John Campbell video where he goes into detail about how aspirating might reduce potential blood clots. So wondering if anyone requested this?

When I did injections as part of my nurse training we where taught that the reason we aspirate during IM injections is to confirm we are actually injecting into the muscle and not accidentally into the vein/blood vessel.

I’ll be honest, I very rarely perform IM injections in my role as it’s not a common route for drug administration in my area of practice, but I have just dug out my trusty copy of the Royal Marsden (the text book renowned for being the nurses procedural ‘bible’) and it confirms the rationale behind aspiration is to ensure the needle is not in a vessel. Always nice to brush up on knowledge you thought you had forgotten!

I did a quick google scholar search aswell (I know, I’m sad but genuinely found this post interesting and saw an opportunity to brush up). There are several recently published articles who suggest the practice is outdated as if you are in the correct anatomical position, and using the correct needle size and technique you shouldn’t be able to hit a vessel. It also says the practice can cause more pain when administering the drug. But, I’m must say not everyone has textbook anatomy and you might only have to drop an inch or so below the muscle of the deltoid and you will find the top end of the brachial artery. Interesting stuff! X

Yes, lots of volunteers are giving vaccines. How else do you. Think it was rolled out so quickly? Anyone in a green St John Ambulance t shirt is a volunteer & there are 30,000 of us!
No need to use an alcohol wipe.

I was definitely taught this as a student midwife ten years ( in the Uk) ago to make sure I wouldn’t inject pethidine/anti D into veins rather than muscle. Just presumed it was normal practice and all Uk practitioners knew this to be the safest way to do it. *disclaimer I’ve not practiced for a while now so no idea if it’s still being taught whether in a class setting or by ‘old school mentor’ on the wards. I know it’s not technically Guideline practice as there is not enough evidence based information. However may be irrelevant anyway as reading other posts i didn’t realise many vaccinators weren’t HCPs.

@ragged

isn't the mechanism how clots happen after AZ to do with immune response inside some cells that takes days to develop, nothing to do with how the jab went into body.

If you watch John cambells video on you tube, it explains how. I am not a doctor so here is my rough explanation. We receive the vaccine in the deltoid muscle in the upper arm. This is fine but all people are made up differently. Normally, when the injection goes in, it goes into the muscle and is spread through the body that way. I think he said through the lymphatic system. However some people, unknown to them and unknown to the vaccinator may put the jab into a blood vessel that goes through the deltoid muscle. This of course would be a rarity with a person but it is possible that peoples veins are in slightly different places and may be in the muscle or close to it. If this happens, the vaccine then goes into the blood vessels that creates huge issues that can cause clotting. This issue will develop to form the low platelets and thromocytopenia [sp] If the person doing the vaccination aspirates the syringe, which is a method of pulling back the syringe then if it hits a vein blood seeps into the syringe showing the vaccinator that they have hit a vein and to stop. However if there is no aspiration, the vaccinator and the person getting the vaccine have no clue of whether the vaccination has gone into a vein or not. There have been studies done in mice that this type of vaccine causes such a condition. There is new research that suggests that there could be a link. Aspiration of the syringe is now being done in other countries for this reason. The UK government are not doing anything about it. For a small thing to do, seems really stupid not to take the precaution.

The condition does take days to develop @ragged

As a mental health nurse many years ago, we were taught to aspirate when giving an IM injection into the glute (upper outer quadrant of the buttock was always drummed into us, although that has also since changed). My understanding is that it was to ensure you weren’t injecting accidentally into one of the large blood vessels in the surrounding area. When I did my vaccination training, we were not taught to aspirate. If someone asked me to aspirate with the COVID vaccine, I would actually politely refuse to do so, simply because it isn’t how I have been taught to do it, and I would be wary to go against what I have been trained to do.

@pompomandpeach

As a mental health nurse many years ago, we were taught to aspirate when giving an IM injection into the glute (upper outer quadrant of the buttock was always drummed into us, although that has also since changed). My understanding is that it was to ensure you weren’t injecting accidentally into one of the large blood vessels in the surrounding area. When I did my vaccination training, we were not taught to aspirate. If someone asked me to aspirate with the COVID vaccine, I would actually politely refuse to do so, simply because it isn’t how I have been taught to do it, and I would be wary to go against what I have been trained to do.

Why did they stop doing it? Do you know?

@pompomandpeach just wondering (I have no information on this) is this due to
increase speed?
If aspirating causes pain then it might put people off
If they are trying anyone and everyone to jab more technicalities such as this would be complicating matters

Or potentially the method is outdated…

This is not in any of the training for Covid vaccinators so folk wld not be allowed to do it.

I'm a nurse and I was taught to aspirate when giving an IM injection purely to check for blood to avoid accidentally administering into a vein. However I do it so quickly that I doubt the patient notices.

@Orangelover if you are giving Covid vaccinations I’ll book at your centre and travel!!!

I started my training in 2006 and I think I was taught to aspirate, however the majority of the meds i’ve administered have been subcut or IV so I don’t remember. The vaccinators who done my jags were trained nurses and didn’t aspirate.

I’m having a google, if it’s not being taught I guess it’s an outdated practice but i’m interested to know now.

The injection technique is not the cause of the AZ related blood clots. If it was, we would have seen the specific blood clotting with low platelets with Pfizer and Moderna too but we haven't.

They didn't aspirate mine

I had injections of LA before which gave me a massive seizure and I needed to be rescuitated. Doctor did NOT aspirate

Fed up of people not doing shit properly

Week six of massively swollen glands

Really suspicious of how serious Covid actually is

My dh aspirates (I didn't know that was its name!) when he does my ivf progesterone injections in my bum. So it must still be current guidance for some IM injections as it's on the leaflet we were given. I don't think it causes any further hurt.

@AColdDuncanGoodhew Im Interested to see if aspiration is no longer taught. My copy of the Marsden is the 9th edition and it was published as best practice then. However I believe last year the 10th edition was published, my trust has a subscription to the electronic copy so I’ll have a look tomorrow to see if aspiration is still reccomended. We also have a student on shift tomorrow so I’ll ask them if they are still taught to aspirate during clinical skills!! Just like yourself the majority of injections I administer are SC or IV, I can’t remember the last time I had to administer an IM injection. I haven’t undergone any vaccination training as I don’t need it for my clinical area but there must be some rationale as to why it’s not been taught as part of the vaccination training. X

I give myself B12 (IM) shots and was told aspiration was unnecessary.

As for AZ and clots if this was the cause then why would incidence of clots be so much lower for second vaccines?

@mumwon the rationale behind aspirating is that if the adenovirus is injected into the blood it causes an autoimmune reaction in the blood (which leads to clotting) that doesn't occur when it's injected into a muscle

What does aspirating mean, in this context?

Pulling back.

Once the needle is in the muscle, pulling back on the plunger of the syringe to create a vacuum (and suck up blood if the tip of the needle happens to be in a blood vessel) before pushing the plunger in to actually inject the liquid into the muscle.

On the plunger that is.

@nordica

The injection technique is not the cause of the AZ related blood clots. If it was, we would have seen the specific blood clotting with low platelets with Pfizer and Moderna too but we haven't.

Its a different type of vaccine to the Pfizer and Moderna seemingly.

AZ is a viral vector vaccine. Think this makes a difference.

So someone with no medical knowledge possibly with an hour’s training will be giving out vaccines?

No