Why are there so many antivaccine covidiots?!

[OwletteGeckoCatboy]

Stupidly let myself to rise to an antivaccine/anti covid comment on Facebook earlier and I'm kicking myself. I wasn't even nasty and got piled on being called an idiot. Why are there so many people who are like this?

@Cornettoninja

Sure! behavioralscientist.org/why-are-people-ignoring-expert-warnings-psychological-reactance-coronavirus-covid-19/

@MistressoftheDarkSide I think - on a worldwide level - I would say a state of fear in the Philippines if they are threatened with jail for not taking the vaccine.

Here - I think some persuasion was needed to encourage to do something that is out of our questioning, free, individualistic nature.

I haven’t felt fear over the restrictions, only fear when my family members have needed medical treatment.

Persuasion. Hmm.

The ends justifies the means eh?

How do you square away your attitude to the uncompliant masses when the government themselves were pleasantly surprised by the level of compliance?

Do we need to be infantilised and nudged to do the right thing really?

My fear was that because I broke a rule, my dying mother might be removed from care in my home because we moved her through rule bending from her own. Where she wasn't safe. Where the Macmillan unit withdrew all support cos Covid but refused to help her in her final weeks because of the rules. My fear was that she'd have to die alone. Fear of the virus - not much, fear of authoritarian and dehumanizing treatment - off the scale.

MN deleted my post, initially saying that mentioning the fact the mRNA vaccines are based on gene therapy techniques would scare some people and that talking about the documented AZ blood clot issues/my personal (albeit anecdotal) experience was scaremongering. When I challenged this and sent info about mRNA they said they couldn't reinstate it as it was in fact not just the reasons they first said, but that also another sentence I said was a problem - I won't repeat so this isn't zapped.

So to clarify - mRNA vaccines aren't like other vaccines, they are very much new technology.
They are based on gene therapy technology/techniques. They aren't 'gene therapy' in that they don't change your DNA, but it is a gene therapy technique, giving the body instructions to create its own spike protein to then make antigens. This isn't misinformation and isn't even argued about. I'm only pointing out these vaccines work very differently to other vaccines and therefore we do have very little information about long term implications. We've never had a vaccine works by wrapping mRNA in a brand new nano lipid particle before. If MN thinks it's users will be scared by info and should be shielded from any info about how they work then I guess this post will go too.

Here's some (reasonable - no Icke here!) references - final link is about mRNA more widely to show it's seen a genetic medicine technique.

qz.com/2005658/covid-19-vaccines-have-ushered-in-the-age-of-genetic-medicine/

asgct.org/research/news/november-2020/covid-19-moderna-nih-vaccine

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fonc.2019.01208/full

My point is it's understandable based on the newness that some people feel hesitant. If we engaged with those people rather than called them idiots and also if we didn't dismiss all their fears or accuse them of scaremongering/misinformation/being stupid, we might actually have a reasonable discourse. Calling people idiots won't make them change their mind, it'll make them dig in more. If the goal is to feel clever then we should carry on as we are. If the goal is vaccine uptake perhaps we need to reconsider.

you are obviously pro vaccine and that’s your standpoint, people are allowed to disagree.

If you want your vaccine go for it, if others don’t leave them be.

My point is it's understandable based on the newness that some people feel hesitant. If we engaged with those people rather than called them idiots and also if we didn't dismiss all their fears or accuse them of scaremongering/misinformation/being stupid, we might actually have a reasonable discourse. Calling people idiots won't make them change their mind, it'll make them dig in more. If the goal is to feel clever then we should carry on as we are. If the goal is vaccine uptake perhaps we need to reconsider.

Exactly!

Thanks @Hornbill123456789

@mondiebee
Yes i had the j&j and felt a little bit talked in to it. My fault for being weak. But yeh nobody is a covidiot to wonder whst the long term effects might be.

I didn't think the origins and technical details of mRNA vaccines, nor the fact that they are new, was newsworthy at this point. I recall seeing BBC articles on how mRNA vaccines work when Pfizer was developing their vaccine, so I can't imagine MN mods would pull posts on that subject, unless they have very short memories!

Some people got scared because they thought the mRNA would go into our DNA, but that doesn't happen. Does the spike protein made by our body's translation mechanism stay put, though, or can it (in some cases) migrate (it's not supposed to)? That's what concerns me now, due to all the reports of side effects such as period changes, severe headaches, joint pains, etc. It feels like more than just 'normal' side effects. Also there's the lipid nanoparticle, which contains PEG (polyethylene glycol) a substance that can cause allergies. As someone with plenty of the latter, I am very doubtful about introducing PEG willingly. It's normal to question things if they are new and combining that with a more general lack of trust in governments I'm actually surprised the take up of vaccine has been so high in this country.

A psychologist was discussing this on radio four and came to the conclusion that you should treat people as if they have been brainwashed by a cult. Makes so much sense as to their behaviour and their unshakable desire to convert others.

So people raising concerns about vaccine side effects are brainwashed like they are in a cult?

I really don’t think this is helpful at all.

It just makes people question more and retreat further. What a crap psychologist!

What about gently speaking to people about their fears which as far as I can see are valid?

I think the Internet makes it easier for one to find others.

So what would previously have been your local eccentric, have now found all the others on the Internet. And throw in some Russian trolls (active on the antivax 'movement' since before the pandemic) and the mischief making is done.

Pop onto the Facebook group the wobble movement
Makes you feel calmer and a bit of a laugh

@MistressoftheDarkSide I’m so sorry to hear what you said. And I apologise because I realise I say things without enough consideration for what everyone is going through. That must have been incredibly hard for you - and I would have done exactly the same in your position. I think what happened in care homes was appalling.

@Pinchoftums

A psychologist was discussing this on radio four and came to the conclusion that you should treat people as if they have been brainwashed by a cult. Makes so much sense as to their behaviour and their unshakable desire to convert others.

IMO, those trying to 'convert' people are the ones that think the vaccine is perfect with no issue, trying to convert those who don't want the vaccine.

So by that logic, nearly everyone on this thread has been brainwashed

I don't think any pro vax people are trying to convert anyone, and we all know vaccine isn't perfect.
My stance is don't have it if you don't want it.
On the contrary, I think a lot of anti vax people seems to want to put off as many people as possible from getting vaxxed.

@roguetomato

I don't think any pro vax people are trying to convert anyone, and we all know vaccine isn't perfect. My stance is don't have it if you don't want it. On the contrary, I think a lot of anti vax people seems to want to put off as many people as possible from getting vaxxed.

I've been call 'unhinged' 'clueless' and many more things on this thread because I don't want the vaccine.

I've also had friends stop talking to me because I haven't got it.

If that's not people trying to convert you then I don't know what is.

You might not have experience it, but it's there just in this single thread

You were not called unhinged at all. Read again.

And that was about 5G, microchips and deliberately infected tests FFS.

Do you make everything up? Seems so.

@chickenyhead

You were not called unhinged at all. Read again.

And that was about 5G, microchips and deliberately infected tests FFS.

Do you make everything up? Seems so.

Oh you're back. Fantastic

I never went anywhere

@chickenyhead

I never went anywhere

Please do carry on. You're proving my laugh for the day. Whilst also massively proving my point.

@OwletteGeckoCatboy

I've literally just said I didn't call them that and it wasn't about people not wanting the vaccine! It was about spreading misinformation.

FB is probably bad for this type of stuff

But yes better to look at uptake rates rather than bother

Annoying though you had a pile on

@roguetomato

I don't think any pro vax people are trying to convert anyone, and we all know vaccine isn't perfect. My stance is don't have it if you don't want it. On the contrary, I think a lot of anti vax people seems to want to put off as many people as possible from getting vaxxed.

Just for reference....

There is another thread running right now where the OP is dubious about the vaccine.

She's been called a cunt.

So yeah, you might not have experienced the negativity, but it's there

There is also a thread where posters are going on about being poisoned by a vaccine and it should have been pulled
Idiots on both sides of the debate that I can see

@mn2022 you're making stuff up, nowhere has anyone called you personally them names. And where has anyone described the vaccine as perfect? I'd just rather put my faith in top scientists than idiots on Facebook and Lizard guy David Icke thanks.
The few people that I personally know that are anti vacc have tried to bully me into not having it. People that have had their vaccines haven't tried to make me have them (even though I have)

@MarshaBradyo thanks yes I shouldn't have commented on it I'm going to leave the Facebook group its a shame because it starred off as a support group with good information on.