Is this breaking the law

[Donatella]

Not the guidance, but the law. Everyone involved is happy to proceed as follow but I don't want to do anything illegal.

Child has been told to stay home from school and self isolate following a positive case (case was in the class and also in an out of school activity the child takes part in). Child had PCR test as a close contact, which was negative. Parents are both key workers, working outside of the home. Child is too young to be left at home alone all day but old enough not to need hands on care. Grandparents (fully vaccinated and healthy) have been a childcare bubble since such a thing existed and are happy for the child to go to them while off school so parents can go to work. Parents have suggested child doing a lateral flow each day to minimise risk to grandparents, grandparents have said this is unnecessary but child and parents will feel happier that way and so do it anyway. However, this does still involve the child leaving the house each day as grandparents don't want to have to spend all day in someone else's house, so is that technically breaking the law on self isolation? Is there a loophole that because the notification came from the school rather than track and trace that it isn't actually illegal?

Oh and he didn't have a PCR last time and won't this time.

Just seen Matt Hancock has resigned .

I've had to do similar this week. I've got other kids that the school want to be kept in school, while one of my kid's class needs to isolate. They asked me to arrange childcare for her so I can get my other kids who aren't isolating into school. I don't want my other kids to miss a week of school unnecessarily. I've been doing lateral flow tests on her this week and she's been negative so is not infectious to anyone. And actually although it's not allowed, I've seen children who are meant to be isolating at the school gates dropping off their siblings.

@1Logan1

Just seen Matt Hancock has resigned .

He should have been sacked.

DS is isolating as a close contact and I have done everything I can to ensure the rest of the family don't need to come into contact with grandparents, mind DS himself. Surely this is a terrible idea to have your close contact DC mixing with anyone, even if they are part of a bubble?

Close adult contacts are allowed to skip isolation via daily tests

They’re offering it in my area now via T&T so kids should be allowed to do the same

@Blue4YOU

I just have to say ask Matt Hancock

Just because some high profile people have failed to follow the rules doesn’t mean that everyone else can fail to follow them either.

Many people break different rules every day, some minor and some serious but that doesn’t mean everyone should follow and do the same

@Lettuceforlunch

We’ve followed the rules all along but after the latest school closure, with a case not even in any of my children’s classes, and mass panic resulting in half the school being closed, I’m done. We’ve all been doubly vaccinated. There was much more risk to all my DC at other events etc we’ve attended recently than there was in school. But hey ho - the LA/PHE say we must isolate. Didn’t apply to Hancock/Wanksock, did it? People have their limits and I’ve reached mine.

Couldn’t agree more, same here

The legislation is here. www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1045

To paraphrase:
"Self-isolate" means a person must remain in their home or the home of a friend or family member where that person is a child (inter alia).

They may leave their home to move to a different place specified (i.e. their home or the home of friend or family), where it becomes impracticable to remain at the address at which they are (amongst various other circumstances).

Arguably, it's impractical for a child to remain at their home if their parents are unable to provide childcare because they need to work and the child can therefore move to the house of a friend or family. The government may well disagree with that interpretation but I'm not sure a court would. I don't think bubbles are particularly relevant here.

What is interesting is the circumstances when an offence is actually committed though. These are much more limited than you might think.

A person who contravenes the self-isolation requirement "without reasonable excuse" commits an offence. In my view, a reasonable excuse would be to obtain childcare for your child so that you can work (particularly if your job or income is at risk if you don't). A reasonable excuse doesn't have to be one of the specified circumstances where you are permitted to leave home. It could be something completely different.

Also, in addition:
"A person who contravenes a requirement to self-isolate... without reasonable excuse and in doing so—

(a) has reason to believe they will come into close contact with another person or group;
(b) does then come into close contact with another person or group;
(c) is reckless as to the consequences of that close contact for the health of that other person or group;
commits an offence."

Are you being reckless by sending a child who probably doesn't have covid to fully vaccinated grandparents particularly while regularly testing child? I think not.

(The part of the legislation which sets out the offences relating to self-isolation is badly drafted and would likely to interpreted in favour of the defendant for that reason.).

My view is that in the highly unlikely circumstance that the police fined you for this, there is no way the CPS would pursue it on appeal or that a court could find that it is a criminal offence. There are too many get outs in the legislation.

Most covid fines issued have been overturned for this sort of reason.

Also, I cannot actually find any limits in the legislation on having visitors while self-isolating. It may be buried there somewhere but not obvious on a quick glance.

So my opinion is that you won't be committing an offence by doing what you want to do.

I'm not personally too bothered about the what the law is anymore and will get grandparents over (or anyone else who offers) to look after my child if he has to self-isolate again. I'm not going to risk losing my career or thousands of pounds over this.

In our health board in scotland we are told a parent should isolate with the child, if its a single parent the full family must.
We are now also asked to isolate the family until a pcr test comes back for any illness in children so runny noses, headaches, sickness bugs schools are asking pupils to do pcr tests and isolate with their entire family. Everyone in the area recieved the message from the healthboard and education department.

Lots in my dcs schools couldn't go to work or take there other kids to school if they were single parents under the new rules.

In our health board in scotland we are told a parent should isolate with the child, if its a single parent the full family must.

Seriously why would that be the case? I'm a single parent and when dd2 was isolating dd1 took herself to school during the time I stayed home with her. When I was isolating she walked the dog and went to the shop. Why would someone's marital or living status mean the whole household was suddenly under covid quarantine? I'm in Scotland too! I think people are misunderstanding.

Is there a government petition anywhere about changing the rules on school bubbles isolating? Pretty sure it would reach 100,000 pretty quickly given the number of children isolating this week

Are you being reckless by sending a child who probably doesn't have covid to fully vaccinated grandparents particularly while regularly testing child? I think not.

I agree. Do what you need to do. Isolation for contacts is no longer proportionate IMO.

@Skyechasemarshalontheway

I didn't realise advice varied across the country. We have just been following the Scottish Government website info

@Skyechasemarshalontheway

In scotland a parent or carer who lives with the child has to isolate if a child is asked to. This is to reduce the child passing it on to others if they did get it. We are not allowed visitors to our house if someone is isolating even if they are our support bubble.

My son is isolating now but we were told only he has to isolate and the rest of us could go out as normal.

What health board is that @Skyechasemarshalontheway ?

@BigSandyBalls2015

Do what you have to do OP, this all beyond ridiculous now.

^this x 100

We are in one of the ayrshire and arran counties. Don't want to be to specific but the letters say an adult must isolate with the child when the child is track and traced. If your a single parent then you all must as you can't take your other kids to school if your isolating with the child.
They also sent another to each school app for every school about us needing to isolate and test for sickness bug, colds etc

I queried with my local msp about how our rules are different to what scot gov says and they told me via email local healthboards are allowed to have extra precautions if they see it to be needed.

Sounds fine to me. Child is testing negative, so not a infection risk to grandparents, and even if they did test positive you all know then who she has been in contact with and can lock each household down. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I mean you are hardly taking her to Wembley stadium or the local Lidl 😂

Wow @Skyechasemarshalontheway as if it's not confusing enough eh?!

your a single parent then you all must as you can't take your other kids to school if your isolating with the child.

That makes no sense - most dc could walk themselves in this situation or be walked by a friend, relative or neighbour of a sibling was isolating. Or if the dc was old enough to stay alone for a short time mum could take other dc, pop to the shop etc. That's very bizarre. Do you have a copy of this letter?

How does anyone have the energy to still argue over the fine print of rules? Just use common sense here. Children who have to isolate as close contacts probably won't develop covid. So you use a degree of caution - keep them out of crowded places and close contact with lots of people - and otherwise let them go for walks and to family for childcare if needed. It's ridiculous to keep a child stuck in the house for 10 days when they are perfedtly well, especially when it happens repeatedly.