If you've refused a vaccine, would you mind answering some questions?

[HollowTalk]

This comes from a conversation I had this afternoon. I'm interested in people's views if they have refused the Covid jab - I'm not talking about people who have a medical reasons for not being vaccinated, eg you're in the middle of chemo or you've been advised not to by your doctor, but just those people who've been offered the vaccination but don't want to take it up.

1 Do you think the UK should be sending vaccines to third world countries?
2 If you were in India at the height of the pandemic, would you have accepted a vaccine?
3 Would you accept a vaccine if you found it restricted your lifestyle otherwise (eg you couldn't fly anywhere or go to a theatre/gig)?
4) Would you be happier if your elderly parents or other high risk relatives were vaccinated?
5) How do you think the pandemic can be resolved safely without a vaccine?

Sorry for so many questions - nobody to chat to about this at the moment and it came up in conversation with a relative who doesn't want to have the vaccine.

@coffeecup88

polio and rhinderpest are still about. Small pox is the only one to have actually been eradicated.

@HollowTalk

I wondered about that, too. It was very hard to see people suffering in India and if you had enough vaccines, it seems heartless not to send them. But then if you think vaccines do irreparable damage, why would you send them?

My family are from India.

They feel that Indian citizens, and those from other countries, have often been used as medical trials for new stuff - another reason I feel foolish for taking the vaccine.

Also the rate in India has only freaked out one cousin (out of several).

They're used to disease and death in high numbers from all kinds of things but those things often aren't profitable. They help with a charity that deals with the usual issues so familiar with it all.

Oh and for 3 - no - coercion wont work with me and makes me more suspicious. Hope to god they have a decent vaccine damage fund for the care workers forced to take it.

If I can’t travel again or attend gigs so be it,

@Roonerspismed

Oh and for 3 - no - coercion wont work with me and makes me more suspicious. Hope to god they have a decent vaccine damage fund for the care workers forced to take it.

If I can’t travel again or attend gigs so be it,

Actually that's a point

Even if .i take the second vaccine, if it became a condition of entry to an entertainment place, I'd not go.

It's really important to avoid the precedent of coercing medical treatment.

Ah rinderpest is the only animal disease to be eradicated. My apologies.

So one animal disease and one human disease in the whole of human history. Covid is here to stay regardless of vaccines.

Vaccine fund was created before they even offered the vaccines. The government website says you’ll get 120k from damage caused by the vaccine.

1. Yes if they still haven't vaccinated the vulnerable

3-4 no

I'm breastfeeding so I'm not willing to pump an experimental drug into my body while feeding my child. It's still considered in a trial period for 2-3 years. The risks of having the vaccine massively outweigh the risks of being seriously ill from covid in my age group. They keep changing their mind on whether or not it's safe for pregnant women. The vaccine hasn't been around for as long as a pregnancy and they can't test on pregnant women so how could they possibly know.
Just doesn't sit right with me.

@Mymapuddlington

Ah rinderpest is the only animal disease to be eradicated. My apologies.

So one animal disease and one human disease in the whole of human history. Covid is here to stay regardless of vaccines.

I'm sorry to say you are misinformed :) interestingly rhinderpest is a morbillivirus very similar to measles and the world have the ability to eradicate that too given the vaccine is very effective but sadly that goal is currently unachievable due to vaccine hesitancy.

You might find this interesting on covid deaths.

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n352

OP "Because the relative is going to start working in a job where they will have to work in extremely close contact with other people. I don't think that's a good idea without being vaccinated and I wouldn't be a client if the person in that role hadn't been vaccinated. That's why the discussion occurred."

Do you mind if I ask - if you were going to have (for example) a dental filling, would you ask the dentist for proof of vaccination?

@coffeecup88 I’ll be sure to let all the research you can access on Google know they’re misinformed

@Buzzinwithbez

First 4, no. I've declined for now. I'm not aware that we're being forced or co-erced so there's nothing to refuse. I have links to 2 people in their 40s who have died from blood clots, 1 person who has had life changing side effects and 1 person who's has been very poorly after it and may yet have life changing consequences. That's a high enough rate for me to have serious doubts.

Gosh,sorry to hear that. That is terrible odds to know 4 people who have suffered with blood clots after the vaccine given that only 10 in every million people develop a blood clot after the vaccine

"Just over 10 people develop this condition for every million doses of AZ vaccine given. " www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-and-blood-clotting/covid-19-vaccination-and-blood-clotting

Do you know one of the reasons we haven’t eradicated polio yet? Scaremongering and conspiracy theories, that are spread through social media, leading to parents refusing to have their children vaccinated.

1. No particular view on this
2. No
3. No the decision would remain the same
4. No particular view, it's their decision
5. Vaccines are useful for some but it is not necessary to vaccinate everyone. You need the ability to assess your own risk and the confidence to do so

[quote Mymapuddlington]@coffeecup88 I’ll be sure to let all the research you can access on Google know they’re misinformed [/quote]
I prefer pubmed to Google...

@Roonerspismed

Oh and for 3 - no - coercion wont work with me and makes me more suspicious. Hope to god they have a decent vaccine damage fund for the care workers forced to take it.

If I can’t travel again or attend gigs so be it,

Care worker aren't being forced to take it. It is now simply a requirement of the job to have been vaccinated. Health professionals have had to have had certain vaccinations to practice for a long time so it really shouldn't be a surprise or unreasonable that care workers are now expected to have the Covid vaccination

@Nightbear

Do you know one of the reasons we haven’t eradicated polio yet? Scaremongering and conspiracy theories, that are spread through social media, leading to parents refusing to have their children vaccinated.

^ this

@JoesM12

1. Yes if they still haven't vaccinated the vulnerable 3-4 no

I'm breastfeeding so I'm not willing to pump an experimental drug into my body while feeding my child. It's still considered in a trial period for 2-3 years. The risks of having the vaccine massively outweigh the risks of being seriously ill from covid in my age group. They keep changing their mind on whether or not it's safe for pregnant women. The vaccine hasn't been around for as long as a pregnancy and they can't test on pregnant women so how could they possibly know.
Just doesn't sit right with me.

But I did say if there wasn't a medical reason - I think breastfeeding is a good enough reason not to have any vaccine.

I declined the vaccine, for my own health reasons. Whether or not a doctor would agree, I don't know, probably not. I've had Covid and have antibodies.

1 Yes, absolutely! We shouldn't be calling people 'selfish' for not having the vaccine by choice, whilst insisting we keep all the doses for ourselves.
2 No
3 No (I'm housebound so it makes little difference)
4) I have no elderly blood relatives, my MIL is vaccinated. That's her choice, whether I am happy or not about it is irrelevant (I am happy as it's what she wants, btw)
5) Vaccines are needed as part of an overall strategy, but they must always be a choice. More effective treatments are needed, too.

@JoesM12

1. Yes if they still haven't vaccinated the vulnerable 3-4 no

I'm breastfeeding so I'm not willing to pump an experimental drug into my body while feeding my child. It's still considered in a trial period for 2-3 years. The risks of having the vaccine massively outweigh the risks of being seriously ill from covid in my age group. They keep changing their mind on whether or not it's safe for pregnant women. The vaccine hasn't been around for as long as a pregnancy and they can't test on pregnant women so how could they possibly know.
Just doesn't sit right with me.

Just incase you're interested.

"Q. Can I have a COVID-19 vaccine if I am breastfeeding?
The JCVI advice published on 30 December 2020 says there is no known risk in giving available COVID-19 vaccines to breastfeeding women.

Breastfeeding women will now be offered vaccination at the time when they become eligible.

Although there is lack of safety data for these specific vaccines in breastfeeding, there is no plausible mechanism by which any vaccine ingredient could pass to your baby through breast milk. You should therefore not stop breastfeeding in order to be vaccinated against COVID-19."
www.rcog.org.uk/en/guidelines-research-services/coronavirus-covid-19-pregnancy-and-womens-health/covid-19-vaccines-and-pregnancy/covid-19-vaccines-pregnancy-and-breastfeeding/

1. Yes, sending vaccines to other countries to those who need them is helpful.
2. No I would not accept the vaccine.
3. No, I wouldn't take the vaccine unless they forced me to through mandatory compulsion.
4. I rather my relatives weigh up their own health risks and do what's best for their situation. Personal responsibility.
5. The pandemic cannot be resolved safely, unfortunately this is nature.

My personal stance is,

I trust my own immune system, to fight off the infection. Weighing up the risks of injecting new technology without knowing long-term impacts, seems to risky. If I was 65 with a heart condition I would take the risk, at early 30s, the risk doesn't seem sensible.

I should preface this by saying I'm only not getting the vaccine while I'm breastfeeding, I will be getting it once I stop
1 Do you think the UK should be sending vaccines to third world countries? - yes once UK citizens have been vaccinated. As a first world country we have more inward and outward travel so think it's good to safeguard if borders won't be shut. I think of it like ab airplane, you have to put your oxygen mask on before helping others.
2 If you were in India at the height of the pandemic, would you have accepted a vaccine? - yes even if breastfeeding
3 Would you accept a vaccine if you found it restricted your lifestyle otherwise (eg you couldn't fly anywhere or go to a theatre/gig)? - same, would wait until stopping breastfeeding
4) Would you be happier if your elderly parents or other high risk relatives were vaccinated? - yes
5) How do you think the pandemic can be resolved safely without a vaccine? - shut borders, have social distancing enforced more as think no one really does it now.

1 Do you think the UK should be sending vaccines to third world countries?
——Absolutely, let people have the choice ——
2 If you were in India at the height of the pandemic, would you have accepted a vaccine?
—— no——- although maybe if I had to have one to fly home to uk
3 Would you accept a vaccine if you found it restricted your lifestyle otherwise (eg you couldn't fly anywhere or go to a theatre/gig)?
—— no. I’d campaign at the highest level to right the injustice of someone trying to impinge on my freedoms by dictating to me what I had to do with my body to be able to live——-
4) Would you be happier if your elderly parents or other high risk relatives were vaccinated? — I have none, but yes I would if I did. I am not anti vax at all, I am pro people on an individual level assessing their own risk of vaccine versus virus versus other circulating potentially deadly viruses that elderly and immune compromised have it consider already—/
5) How do you think the pandemic can be resolved safely without a vaccine?
—Time. People who want to be vaccinated, versus those who’ve had it versus the naturally immune (Newcastle university researchers suggest it’s a large percentage and have identified a potential gene that in future could be used to prioritise those who need vaccines)

I am not anti vax and did not, and continue to not, make my decision not to be Vaxed upon how many people have (eg I am not looking to piggy back on others immunity) if 0 people had got vaccinated I still wouldn’t. I do not believe that the blood clot/heart inflammation risk (and other potential unknown risks) is worth the jab for somebody in my demographics (I’ve actually had the virus, badly and had long covid so understand people defy the statistics in terms of risk of covid , but still maintain I’d work off the probability of risk of Covid/severity and death versus risk of vaccine if I had mi decide again)

@Buzzinwithbez

Following the vaccine, yes. I'm sure if I knew of a young person who seemed close enough to home who had died from covid I'd feel differently about the vaccine. Everyone is swayed by their own experience.

Are they? Surely people should make decisions based on data and statistical risks not their own anecdata? Upsetting as it may be, you cannot make a proper risk assessment from personal experience as it may contain statistical anomalies that aren't remotely representative. That's why we have the scientific method.

That aside - I am so sorry to hear of your experience.

If I was 65 with a heart condition I would take the risk, at early 30s, the risk doesn't seem sensible
I agree with you, but the govt expect you to take the risk with your health in order to give the elderly and vulnerable more protection.
You are being asked to potentially sacrifice your future health for the sake of those who are older and/or in poor health.

@Mymapuddlington

Ah rinderpest is the only animal disease to be eradicated. My apologies.

So one animal disease and one human disease in the whole of human history. Covid is here to stay regardless of vaccines.

The purpose of vaccines is not primarily to eradicate a disease. Why do you believe this? I mean it's great when one can, but as you observe such cases are rare. But generally their purpose is to reduce the incidence and severity of disease to a manageable level.

Why do you think we both with all of the childhood vaccinations and boosters? Or annual flu vaccinations? It's not because we believe we'll eradicate those diseases by doing so, it's because it saves many lives and reduces the impact of diseases that would otherwise cause orders of magnitude more deaths.