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The next 4 weeks are about preparing us for ‘living with covid’

115 replies

solarlights · 15/06/2021 09:23

There’s been so much scaremongering and manipulation so far during this pandemic - rightly or wrongly. But now I get the distinct impression that the tide is about to turn and over the next 4 weeks we are going to be braced for living with coronavirus and everything that entails including the fact there will still be significant numbers of deaths and some people will get long covid. I think we’ll be told having the vaccination is our only protection and after that we need to get on with it and accept the risk. Social distancing is not a viable option long term and neither is 10 days of isolation. Be interesting to see what unravels in the media over the next month.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 15/06/2021 10:45

And the government are pretty much alone in not vaccinating over 12s at the moment

This is absolute bollocks.

strangeshapedpotato · 15/06/2021 10:47

@PicsInRed

They don’t need to deprogrammed people who live in countries where there are no cases.

They will have to get those people to accept cases, hospitalisations and deaths. From a starting point of "zero covid", that'll be a bit of a slog.

err No they won't
HarveySchlumpfenburger · 15/06/2021 10:54

@LovelaceBiggWither

Another one here who cannot see how we will need an enormous narrative shift because of a Project Fear. There is no Project Fear. We react swiftly to any cases detected and that's kept our numbers incredibly low.

Life's pretty normal where I live, the roll out of the vaccine program is disgracefully delayed but I get my second vaccine tomorrow. Once the majority of the country is vaccinated, borders will be opened, probably case by case and everybody I know is looking forward to that. Project Fear my arse.

I think the problem on here is largely that the people going on about not wanting zero covid don’t really understand zero covid and what it involves. And what it doesn’t.

Mind you I did, raise an eyebrow ant a friend that was complaining about having to have a 3day lockdown a few months ago. I’m not sure she’d thought too much about who she was talking to. Grin I guess complaining about lockdown is a thing however short and infrequent they are.

IGotFat · 15/06/2021 10:57

Can anyone help me with this query please?

Yesterday afternoon Sky were reporting that the AZ vaccine was 60% effective after 2 doses against the Delta variant, but at the news briefing later on, Patrick Vallance was going on and on emphasising it was 92% effective, so which is it? I feel that we are being played here

Cornettoninja · 15/06/2021 11:00

I also think we'll need to accept as a society that up to 50,000 deaths a winter from COVID is 'OK'. It's been OK for some years with flu. Vacc options every winter, take it or leave it, same as flu

Just on this point, it depends very much on your agenda/perspective whether flu rates in previous years have been ‘ok’. Every year hospitals have to implement winter pressure strategies and it’s a well known issue that they’re often pushed to the brink (covid tipped them over).

It has been very quiet over any proposed measures to expand services to cope with any extra pressure from covid. I think the government may have been banking on more than they’ve got from the vaccines but I think it’s unavoidable now that they will have to invest sooner rather than later.

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 15/06/2021 11:03

I’ve only seen data for AZ that suggests 60%. Possibly they have lots of data that isn’t yet in the public domain that they’ve based their stats on. Also, the data on they slide is averaged over both vaccines. They don’t give data by whether it’s AZ or Pfizer/Moderna, just whether someone has been vaccinated or not. Pfizer seems to have a higher efficacy against the delta variant.

BlueBlancmange · 15/06/2021 11:07

@IGotFat

Can anyone help me with this query please?

Yesterday afternoon Sky were reporting that the AZ vaccine was 60% effective after 2 doses against the Delta variant, but at the news briefing later on, Patrick Vallance was going on and on emphasising it was 92% effective, so which is it? I feel that we are being played here

I believe it means 60% effective at preventing symptomatic disease and 92% effective at preventing hospitalisation.

www.livemint.com/science/health/pfizer-astrazeneca-covid-vaccines-keep-delta-patients-out-of-hospitals-uk-11623726138746.html

sleepwouldbenice · 15/06/2021 11:07

@IGotFat

Can anyone help me with this query please?

Yesterday afternoon Sky were reporting that the AZ vaccine was 60% effective after 2 doses against the Delta variant, but at the news briefing later on, Patrick Vallance was going on and on emphasising it was 92% effective, so which is it? I feel that we are being played here

I haven't got anything to hand but I am pretty sure the first was the reduction in symptomatic disease and the second was hospitalisations It was all in the briefing
sleepwouldbenice · 15/06/2021 11:10

@solarlights

There’s been so much scaremongering and manipulation so far during this pandemic - rightly or wrongly. But now I get the distinct impression that the tide is about to turn and over the next 4 weeks we are going to be braced for living with coronavirus and everything that entails including the fact there will still be significant numbers of deaths and some people will get long covid. I think we’ll be told having the vaccination is our only protection and after that we need to get on with it and accept the risk. Social distancing is not a viable option long term and neither is 10 days of isolation. Be interesting to see what unravels in the media over the next month.
Don't really get what you are on about to be honest. We've talked about living with covid for a long time I doubt all restrictions (e.g. masks) can happen at once and there will be local flare ups and issues All made perfectly clear for a while now
IGotFat · 15/06/2021 11:10

thanks everyone. I have had Covid, though at New Year so not Delta variant, and 2 doses of AZ, I suppose I might be able to relax a bit! Grin

wingsofsteel · 15/06/2021 11:15

@yearoflostyouth

Someone on the news this morning (expert, not commentator or person in streets) said that they needed to use these 4 weeks to put in place a system whereby people with 2 vaccines and a negative test did not have to isolate. That would make a huge difference to the economy (and education for older students 16+ until they vaccinate younger).

I agree. You can't go from quite draconian measures to 'freedom' in one day. And the government are pretty much alone in not vaccinating over 12s at the moment, and not recognising that fully vaccinated people need to be treated differently unless the science is to totally ignored (plus anyone medically exempt, for the sake of equality and ethics). It makes no scientific sense to treat an unvaccinated person and a fully vaccinated person the same.

And saying a young person experiences the Delta variant like a cold, but are a huge problem in terms of transmission, but then refusing to start vaccinating them, leaving them doing university courses at home online, making them sit at home for 10 days with no evidence of infection (just in case), also makes no sense. Follow the US and EU and vaccinate those young people and over 12s that want to be vaccinated. The shortage is due to the availability of an appointment for a vaccine ,not the availability of a vaccine.

I agree with these comments about vaccinating teenagers. In my area, there is a significant increase in older teens catching Covid and lots of them have been sent away from school to isolate multiple times. As well as the increased risk of them passing Covid on to people who are vulnerable this is detrimental to their education at a key time. I know loads of teens (and parents of teens) who would love them to be able to choose to be vaccinated and not have to miss school. But we haven't heard a single thing from the government about this (or anything else sensible to deal with the impact on education and young people). On top of that, quite a few students aiming to go to University will not be 18 until the Summer so will not have any chance of being fully vaccinated before they start University- which surely makes it more likely that we will have outbreaks in University towns again (and/or online learning).
Imfedupwithallofthis · 15/06/2021 11:19

@RuleWithAWoodenFoot

"It's also to allow us to get more jabs (first and second) into arms. Maybe then they'll start looking at vacc requirements for some large scale events - can't do it at the moment because not everyone has had the chance to be vaccinated. Unlike in most European countries and the US."

Which European countries were you thinking of? They may have opened up the invitation for everyone to be vaccinated, but that is a long, long way for everyone to be vaccinated, or given the chance to be vaccinated.

We are ahead in percentage terms of most if not all European counties, though Germany thankfully is catching up.

Lostinacloud · 15/06/2021 11:23

@AbsolutelyPatsy well france are busy unlocking and with pretty much all restrictions due to end on June 30th. There will still probably be masks unfortunately as the french are obsessed about them but normal life is supposed to return with limits only remaining on large scale events which now require vaccination or a negative test.
However, if we can believe anything we are told, everything is due to finish on 30th September this year. So no covid anything, no state of emergency and no health pass (the covid vaccine/negative test setup).

Thewiseoneincognito · 15/06/2021 11:40

Some very interesting thoughts on this thread.

I feel that the final unlocking in July may not be feasible looking at our current trajectory on both the optimistic and pessimistic models. The next 4 weeks as we know will be a final push to double vaccinate as many as possible but all of that is whilst the numbers continue to rise in the background. I have said this before on another thread but the government is now stuck between a rock and a hard place because they were foolish enough to give an end date. When will we learn that you can not plan ahead with Covid?

Will they manipulate the data for reopening to save face in the hopes that the summer holidays will cushion the blow and allow us to limp freely (🙄) into autumn so they can claim we had our freedom day but now we must peddle back?

Boris said in his speech last night that a portion of the vulnerable and elderly are still at risk despite being double vaccinated. Over the coming weeks we will start to see a clearer picture of how effective the protection is for those, whether it is enough to enable us to learn to live with Covid or if a rethink is needed.

I still firmly believe that the ONLY way we can live with Covid is with either 1) a cure that eradicates it completely without any risk of further mutations (unlikely to happen any time soon) or 2) a complete overhaul of our healthcare and essential services infrastructure. It’s all well and good saying we can learn to live with Covid but if that means a continual stream of patients in already overburdened hospitals the risk of health system collapse becomes very real and would be a mess.

We must double our hospital capacity, build specific Covid only centres around the country and double our NHS workforce somehow. Without a robust health system that is able to deal with Covid spikes that do not affect our way of life we simply can not live with it.

It is naive and perhaps arrogant to think we can just live with Covid without any sacrifice on our part, it’s a reality that will take a long time to acclimate to and a degree of pragmatism will be required if and when new variants crop up.

Racoonworld · 15/06/2021 11:51

I hope you're right OP. We do need to get on with it and live with it. Some people are really going to need help to get over their fear of Covid.

SunnySideDownBriefly · 15/06/2021 11:52

I'm self-isolating at the moment and am taking part in a study that could reduce the need for self-isolation. I'm part of the group that has to take a test every day and upload the results. As part of this group, I'm also allowed to go out if I want to but I don't think that's a good idea just yet as that seems unfair on other people. I'm going to take my dog for a walk (live rurally) and keep my distance from others but it's a nice perk to know I won't be fined £1000 to walk my very high energy dog and am perhaps contributing to a better understanding of the contact risk.

MarshaBradyo · 15/06/2021 11:53

I hope so. Isolation is a big thing, especially for dc

Overthebow · 15/06/2021 11:55

@IGotFat

Can anyone help me with this query please?

Yesterday afternoon Sky were reporting that the AZ vaccine was 60% effective after 2 doses against the Delta variant, but at the news briefing later on, Patrick Vallance was going on and on emphasising it was 92% effective, so which is it? I feel that we are being played here

Isn't one figure about getting covid, and one about hospitalisation? So 60% effective in not getting covid, and 92% protection against severe disease and hospitalisation?
Maiyakat · 15/06/2021 11:55

Agree with previous posters that the self isolation rules for schools need reviewing. DD is currently self isolating along with every other child in the juniors at her school. The first class to go off only managed two days in after half term... As a single parent if she is isolating so am I by default and I can't work. If being vaccinated is going to be what gets you out of self isolating what about the under 12s?

Allmyarseandpeggymartin · 15/06/2021 12:03

@IGotFat I’m sure Chris Whitby said they’d had some more data in which could be behind the update

Allmyarseandpeggymartin · 15/06/2021 12:03

Chris Whitty! Fuck knows who Chris Whitby is!

EasterIssland · 15/06/2021 12:07

Thanks @SunnySideDownBriefly for the info! Sounds like what Gove did. Glad to hear they’re allowing it as well to normal people and not only ministers. Hope everything goes ok and in the future the need of self isolation is removed

RedToothBrush · 15/06/2021 12:09

Right. I don't think this was explained well enough in last night's press conference so here's where we are at.

In terms of the growth of the virus, the point is its exponentially growing at this point. That means that even though its small numbers now it has the potential to explode very quickly. We can't stop this. There are ways we can limit how fast this happens and when it happens. We all (by now) should understand the concept of flattening the curve. This time is slightly different though.

There was a key point Chris Whitty made - on the 19th July - even with this delay - the number of cases will be higher than now. They aren't trying to stop this dead like before. The delay is to get jabs in arms and maintain the current rate of growth rather than allow it to accelerate.

This is something thats crucial to understand.

The government are now saying 'we have accepted a certain number of deaths as inevitable and on balance more restrictions would do more harm'. Johnson made the strong point that the vaccine works for most of us, but there is a small minority for whom its only a minimual benefit. This isn't unusual - we know this is the case with all vaccinations. We just don't know who this is hence why we go for herd immunity using vaccines in the first place.

To sum up - you can't stop a wave, you can only manage it and even if you vaccinated 100% of the population you'd still have some vulnerable to it.

So we have to deal with the wave coming through and we have to do the best we can to protect those who can't be vaccinated or remain unprotected despite vaccination by doing as many other people as possible.

If we delay opening up too much we run into the winter which would cause additional problems (eg immunity may be on decline at the same point the most vulnerable need 3rd doses). We actually need the wave to be over by the autumn so the optimum window of opportunity to manage the situation is limited. If the UK get through it earlier than other countries who are slower on the vaccination drive / have lesser uptake - we actually will be well placed going forward because our infrustructure to manufacture and deliver variant specific top ups quickly (more quickly than the roll out has been) will be up to speed.

Basically its all a race against time.

Whether this will work is another matter but only time will tell. But the theory is good its just the practicalities of it.

I don't think a 4 week delay is a disaster. The tone and content of what is being said by both government and Whitty has changed though. Yes its about living with it now - but the feeling is we have 4 crucial weeks to get on top of things and get to the point where we have the best chance to just deal with things

Do I think another lockdown is possible? Yes. Possibly in January. But the progress of pandemics is that subsequent waves gradually do decrease in potency and impact even without vaccinations. The modelling is signicantly better than it was last autum at the start of the 2nd wave too.

But that will be a last resort if there is a critical situation in hospitals. And its only likely to be short if it does happen.

To be blunt able it, there is a pool of people who are most at risk of this, and that group shrinks in size as the pandemic progresses (either because they respond well to vaccinations or the die). And thats really the limiting factor here.

As for subsequent variants - worldwide vaccination rollout will help, the pool of the vulnerable will decrease and our ability to get new variant specific vaccines out at speed will be there. So new variants as a risk continue but the risk gradually decreases over time.

Time is the key here.

RedToothBrush · 15/06/2021 12:13

@Thewiseoneincognito

Some very interesting thoughts on this thread.

I feel that the final unlocking in July may not be feasible looking at our current trajectory on both the optimistic and pessimistic models. The next 4 weeks as we know will be a final push to double vaccinate as many as possible but all of that is whilst the numbers continue to rise in the background. I have said this before on another thread but the government is now stuck between a rock and a hard place because they were foolish enough to give an end date. When will we learn that you can not plan ahead with Covid?

Will they manipulate the data for reopening to save face in the hopes that the summer holidays will cushion the blow and allow us to limp freely (🙄) into autumn so they can claim we had our freedom day but now we must peddle back?

Boris said in his speech last night that a portion of the vulnerable and elderly are still at risk despite being double vaccinated. Over the coming weeks we will start to see a clearer picture of how effective the protection is for those, whether it is enough to enable us to learn to live with Covid or if a rethink is needed.

I still firmly believe that the ONLY way we can live with Covid is with either 1) a cure that eradicates it completely without any risk of further mutations (unlikely to happen any time soon) or 2) a complete overhaul of our healthcare and essential services infrastructure. It’s all well and good saying we can learn to live with Covid but if that means a continual stream of patients in already overburdened hospitals the risk of health system collapse becomes very real and would be a mess.

We must double our hospital capacity, build specific Covid only centres around the country and double our NHS workforce somehow. Without a robust health system that is able to deal with Covid spikes that do not affect our way of life we simply can not live with it.

It is naive and perhaps arrogant to think we can just live with Covid without any sacrifice on our part, it’s a reality that will take a long time to acclimate to and a degree of pragmatism will be required if and when new variants crop up.

See my point about about Whitty's key point. The delay not about reducing the curve, its about preventing further acceleration at this point to give time to get key vaccination numbers up. At which point nothing much further can realistically be done.
SonnetForSpring · 15/06/2021 12:20

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay

I think the next 4 weeks are about kicking the can down the road a bit. The government don’t really want to admit that increasing some more restrictions over the summer is more likely than not. I doesn’t look good if they announce that on ‘freedom day’ though.
Agree.
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