When it’s always on the terms of the more germ conscious / paranoid / worried friend..

[Abelard40]

... ok so not phrasing that well but getting a bit tired of being fine when friend cancels / expresses caution over latest data / some friend of a friend was near someone with COVID even though track n trace haven’t been involved (not always a solid case granted) .. but I am mildly irritated these days by the fact it’s her that dictates the terms of when it is or isn’t safe.. gah... I’m being a bitch right?

Covid anxiety had been caused by government propaganda, as their own behavioural psychologists have admitted. It's not their fault but they have to be dealt with in the same way as an alcoholic or drug addict - they will only get better if they want to and it's a question of how much you can support them in their mental illness without enabling it or letting it upset you too much.

The more cautious friends view does trump your own. But it wears you down after a while and it may no longer be worth the effort to meet up and the friendship would be permanently damaged.

No, you're not. While different people have different comfort zones, it will have an effect on a relationship if one person constantly puts additional barriers in the way above and beyond the current measures.

^I agree. I’m with you OP

I don't know anyone like this, I don't know how I'd deal with them if I did. Depending on how much of a good friend they were I'd probably have to distance myself from them because that is just too much of a headache and we would clearly be polar opposites anyway.

I have one family member who likes to stick to the rules but not OTT. Other than that all my friends and family are carrying on as normal when it comes to socialising.

'I am mildly irritated these days by the fact it’s her that dictates the terms of when it is or isn’t safe'

OP this is understandable.
She has a right to cancel, but the same you've a right to be annoyed about last minute changes and choose to socialise with others.

We're those friends - CEV person in the family (with a condition that means their jab may well not work)

This pandemic has been really illuminating for us, and those who cannot or will will not see what it is like for the vulnerable, and why it is utterly correct that people set their own terms for what level of risk they take, well they're no loss.

I have found that most people are way more sympathetic and supportive

She can set whatever terms she wants, you can then decide if you want to see her or not. It would be wrong and cruel to see her and then push against her self-imposed restrictions in any way, or to pressure her to meet when she feels it's unsafe - it'll make her feel really upset and anxious - but it's also ok to decide that you don't want to meet under the conditions she sets.

I have a friend that I now don't see because her anxiety about covid dominates any meeting to the extent that it isn't remotely enjoyable for me. It makes me a bit sad because I don't think it'll change any time soon and I think there's a realistic chance that the friendship will have withered entirely by then but she makes it all so unpleasant that I'm not willing to put myself through more meetings (though in her case it's not just the excessive measures it's also all she talks about, and she does so in a way that's very scathing about everyone that isn't her, which is probably the bigger problem).

@hazelnutcrackers

Covid anxiety had been caused by government propaganda, as their own behavioural psychologists have admitted. It's not their fault but they have to be dealt with in the same way as an alcoholic or drug addict - they will only get better if they want to and it's a question of how much you can support them in their mental illness without enabling it or letting it upset you too much.

Completely agree with this. If you or someone you live with is vulnerable fair enough. If not and you're doing the covid drama then I just won't see you. I'm not going to buy into or enable your fear .. and I call out those who do the covid drama every single time. This whole debacle has been very illuminating in terms of friendships.

@Feedingthebirds1

You're being very unkind to your friend who isn't willing to take the same risks you are.

I don't think that's the whole issue though. Of course everyone is fine to determine their own level of risk and to act accordingly. It would be the expecting the OP to be ready to go out at a moment's notice that I'd have trouble with. To the point where even if it was cutting off my nose to spite my face, I wouldn't be available next time. See if she gets the message, or if she pulls the but you have to, I want to see you NOW! attitude.

Agree with this. And tbh I think lljkk has a point, although I wouldn't have used the word 'pandering' as i don't like it in general. It is often the case these days that the people who express the most vehement and drastic emotions get heard. In many cases, these expressions of emotion are entirely justified and need to be heeded (when they are coming from groups who have suffered racism, for example). In other cases, they're not.

It has, hasn't it @Turkishangora ?

If we had had one, it would certainly have ended by mutual consent by now.

Mercifully, I have not found that everyone is the same

I wouldn't be able to deal with that friend I am afraid...I would leave her to her own devices whilst she is so worried....

It's not unreasonable for her to refuse to meet due to her anxiety. It's not unreasonable for you to feel frustrated by frequent last minute cancellations.

Has she said that she appreciates the flexibility you've shown/understands that it's a pain when she cancels? I'd be a lot more patient with a friend who showed an appreciation of the effects their behaviour was having on me.

I too think lljkk has a point. In my own social group the one who shouts loudly about what she wants does often steer the whole group her way. We're polite and accommodate her, mostly. But it has been noted, by more than one of us.

We have a friend who has always worried about health issues. DH gets frustrated. as he/we can only see him outside, must be distanced and more. He's even come here in his campervan so he has every single thing possible with him to avoid contact with anything we've touched, chairs, glasses, cups, nibbles. He's still having shopping delivered and cleaned. After a hard winter, I've come to the conclusion it's far more important to accept he's extremely cautious as it's the only way we can see him and we value his friendship.

She has a right to cancel, but the same you've a right to be annoyed about last minute changes and choose to socialise with others.

This. Covid aside, think of it like this. Yes she does have every right to cancel, as she would with any situation, but you do have every right to feel annoyed at frequent cancellations, no matter what the reason.

It sounds like you have been very accommodating to her and she isn't appreciating it and you are at the end of your tether with it.

It's one thing to cancel for genuine emergencies/scares but when it's frequent the gravity of each individual emergency gets diluted.

Plus with covid some people not only want to set their own boundaries (fair) but want other people to bend to pander to them too. It's one thing to say you'll only meet people outside but to then complain that another friend isnt accommodating your 'needs' because they only want to meet inside for whatever reason would be very selfish. And I can just imagine the MN threads now - 'friend of ten years doesn't want to meet for walk in rain and suggested coffee inside instead to stay dry, she knows I'm worried about covid, should I cut her off' or 'MIL has invited us for a dinner party but refuses to change it to a bbq so we can stay outside, shall I go NC?' Everyone can set their own terms, but they can't then go complaining if people choose to forgo the meeting up to avoid the terms.

I completely understand OP. The problem is it takes both people to want to do something, and only one person not to. if you're not of the same opinion then the person who doesn't want to meet gets their way every time, which is only right as no-one should be forced into doing things they're not comfortable with, but it can drain your good will to feel like you're always the one making concessions. This applies to lots of things, not just meeting up during covid.

I've tried to be as accommodating as possible to my more anxious friends when we meet, but if they kept cancelling and expecting infinite flexibility I think I'd be quietly dropping that friendship for now, at least the meeting in person aspect. It doesn't sound much fun for you anyway if you're always worrying about last minute cancellations etc. You can always resume it later if this becomes less of an issue.

You are not being a bitch that would annoy me too it's actually ridiculous.

Will these people live thier lives like this forever?

I think it depends what your relationship was like before Covid. If it was pretty equal then I'd give her some slack. If it's always been all give and no take then I'd have a think about the future of the relationship.

It’s just becoming increasingly hard to have this friendship on her terms.

And eventually it will be too hard and you’ll let the friendship lapse. It’s just life. Her choices, but there are consequences to those choices.

It’s a new variation of flakey. Just wouldn’t arrange to meet up with her anymore.

I think a lot of people are having similar experiences right now, aren't they? I can think of 2 friendships where I'm the relaxed one in one and the cautious one in the other! I get frustrated with the one (she won't let her DD on outside playgrounds so we are limited to walks and bike rides round the park) but I respect her views and keep it all inside like op. I am grateful to the other for respecting that I don't want to do a lot of going inside restaurants and other people's houses yet.
The other thing I'd like to say is that I think there's a difference between being anxious - which implies it's the anxiety that's the problem - and making your own judgements based on what science/data/experiences you've come across and deciding how you want to behave to minimise your impact on spreading covid and future lockdowns. Sometimes it might be anxiety, sometimes it might be an informed choice. Both deserve respect.

It’s a new variation of flakey. Just wouldn’t arrange to meet up with her anymore

Nice comment. I’m not in the least bit flakey, but I’m cautious. The 2 are not the same.

They are if, as OP has said, she cancels meet ups with friends at short notice. The ‘drivers’ behind cancelling due to covid concerns vs other reasons might be different but the impact on others is the same.

I have a MH condition, although not related to health anxiety. It doesn’t excuse flakiness / messing people around.

but the impact on others is the same.

This exactly.

Here in Japan there has never really been any legally mandated lockdown (even restaurants have mostly been open throughout), so it's been kind of up to each individual to decide how "strict" they want to be. In the UK, you're just moving into this phase, as compulsory restrictions come to an end and choices about what limits to observe start to be something that varies much more from person to person.

I've found that friendship groups have "sorted" by attitude over the past 18 monthsI've continued to meet up with the people who are happy to do this and we've grown closer over time.... and the people who are not okay with meeting up in person because they are very cautious or vulnerable or whatever-well, we've kind of fallen out of touch, I've found.

It's not about taking a dislike to someone or wanting to punish them. But it's hard to maintain a friendship through Zoom/Skype alone. I do try my best. But if you are no longer having experiences in common you end up with nothing to talk about and conversations start to feel boring or awkward. They are doing little and have little to discuss--and I don't want to talk about things I've been doing or friends I have been meeting up with ("The most HILARIOUS thing happened the other day when Jane and Zoe and me met in the park....!") because it would feel excluding to talk about events where the person I am talking to was not present, and also I feel like they are going to judge me, at some level. We can't really talk about politics or current affairs either because it always ends up coming back to COVID and clearly we have different views on COVID. Anyway, I have to Zoom and Skype for work. I'm a bit sick of it and can only do so much of the teleconferencing stuff, to be honest.

I had hoped that the vax would get us all back to normal, but some of my cautious friends have started making noises about "Oh, the immunity probably doesn't last long, and these variants, we're all going to have to be so cautious for a looooong time" etc. I know it's their choice, but our kids are moving onto different stages, finding new friends and starting to forget each other---I do feel like once the cautious ones eventually get sick of this and decide to come out of their shells, they may find that the friendship groups have moved on without them.

But hey-their choice, I guess. (Shrug) You can't make people do things and everyone must try to find their own way through this pandemic mess.