Question to Those of you who reckon UK should have closed borders to India long ago

[lljkk]

When should they have closed... on what date, and why on that date?
Plus how "closed" would that mean, onto "red list" or something even stricter -- how strict?

I'm thinking how the "should have closed borders to India sooner" criteria would affect next decisions about which countries to put on red list next.

@Kokeshi123
Regardless of where you do your quarantine, Japan currently has a very long list of countries barred from entry. Unsurprising probable to everybody on this thead the UK is one of them.

www.insidekyoto.com/can-i-travel-to-japan-now

Can I Travel To Japan Now? May 2021
At present, all tourists and business people are barred from entering the country. Japan has tightened restrictions due to the new Covid-19 variants. The Olympics are still on, but foreign visitors will not be able to attend.

The number of deaths per day in Japan has been well over the UK figures for quite a while now.

The UK deaths have (finally) gone down to numbers between 2-17 a day. For now...

I'm confident that Japan's low total (compared to UK) number of around 10,000 deaths, even if slightly rising, will not come close to the total UK level.

@oystercatcher44

For the whole of the lockdown dual nationals and British citizens with a registered address overseas have been able to come and go as they pleased.

Many have taken advantage of this to travel back and forth to visit family members, attend family celebrations, and take a holiday in their home country.

My neighbours have been able to visit their loved ones on another continent twice since Christmas, while I have been banned from visiting my relatives in another county. It is the failure to address this glaring loophole which has contributed to the import of variants of concern.

Not totally accurate. There was a UK ban. I couldn't go from Scotland to England except for care or work. We also had a 3 week ban on leaving the city. The resyriction here from Dec 27th was a stay at home . Not the same as other countries in the UK. So I wasn't able to see family in the UK.

We should have closed our borders in 2020 only allowing home nationals or work that had to be done in person. No entry from red countries without 2 week quarantine.
But a Tory govt don't give a crap about 3 parts of the UK or their thoughts.
We could have been like NZ and used the fact we are an island as a defence. But the govt are incompetent.

For the whole of the lockdown dual nationals and British citizens with a registered address overseas have been able to come and go as they pleased.

I'm a dual national and haven't.

However, it Is extremely serious to deny nationals entry to their own country. It's a basic right to be able to repatriate. And of course that is more complicated with dual nationals.

Gladys thread. I don’t know the exact date that borders should have closed. But if I was the prime minister of this country and if I was not desperate to make a deal with India I would have known the precise date, and that date would have been a lot earlier than the date it happened.

@MrsTerryPratchett

For the whole of the lockdown dual nationals and British citizens with a registered address overseas have been able to come and go as they pleased.

I'm a dual national and haven't.

However, it Is extremely serious to deny nationals entry to their own country. It's a basic right to be able to repatriate. And of course that is more complicated with dual nationals.

That's where quarantine has a role to play.

It's also extremely serious to deny safety and the right to life and good health to nationals (and all residents).

It's also extremely serious to deny safety and the right to life and good health to nationals (and all residents).

Yes. But the right to repatriate is a tangible human right. By delaying or preventing you are very slightly (or very effectively in some cases) reducing what is a small chance of death. Now to the person's family who does die, that's the worst possible thing in the world. But you can't actually link my right with that person's right. I mean who could know who it was? And whether they would have become ill. It's not like for like.

However, it Is extremely serious to deny nationals entry to their own country. It's a basic right to be able to repatriate. And of course that is more complicated with dual nationals.
Then we allow them to repatriate but they must properly quarantine on arrival in the UK. I don't see any downsides to this from the governments point of view. Downsides for the individual, such as possible not working for 2 weeks after coming in, but they need to factor that in when deciding to go and visit another country.

The Indian variant is probably everywhere. It’s certainly been detected throughout Europe, American and even AUSTRALIA.

My god, how many times are you going to post this incorrect assertion?

It has not been detected out in the community in AUSTRALIA, as you put it. There is no community transmission of the Indian variant there.

The only cases are in people who have returned recently from India, who are all in hotel or remote centres of quarantine like Howards Springs.

@ChocOrange1

However, it Is extremely serious to deny nationals entry to their own country. It's a basic right to be able to repatriate. And of course that is more complicated with dual nationals. Then we allow them to repatriate but they must properly quarantine on arrival in the UK. I don't see any downsides to this from the governments point of view. Downsides for the individual, such as possible not working for 2 weeks after coming in, but they need to factor that in when deciding to go and visit another country.

I agree. As long as something could be looked at for funerals and end of life care.

While NZ and Aus have done well in terms of pursuing a zero covid approach, they are likely pushing the ball down the road. They both have a v slow vaccine roll out, there is not much urgency and take up will likely be much lower than other countries like the UK where people are desperate for normality to return and the vaccine is the only way out.

If the UK had sealed its borders the way Aus has, when do you think they would be opening? It could be many months if not years before Aus reopens and they will likely be hit with a lot of cases when they do. Almost no natural immunity.

There is also a huge human rights issue when you refuse entry to your own citizens or make it v difficult for them to return.

Will BJ ever be held to account and asked his reasons for not putting India on earlier?

It's actually a recommendation of a SAGE sub-committee to allow importation (and monitoring ) of new variants.

63. SPI-M-O considers slowing importation of new variants, such as B.1.351, into the UK a very important priority to allow for the next generation of vaccines to be developed. Whilst new vaccines can be developed, this will likely take many months.

Measures to prevent and manage importation risks such as testing individuals, sequencing samples, and maintaining strict quarantine measures for those entering the country will remain important and may delay the spread of variants of concern.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975909/S1182_SPI-M-O_Summary_of_modelling_of_easing_roadmap_step_2_restrictions.pdf

[quote ElizabethTudor]It was also frankly insane that the government permitted delegates from India to attend the G7 in person earlier this month, some of whom then tested positive.
You couldn’t make this shit up.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/indian-delegation-at-g7-in-london-forced-to-self-isolate-for-covid[/quote]
Still not learnt!
G7 still going ahead in Cornwall, a county that has so far been very good at avoiding the worst of covid but lets allow 1000s of overseas visitors here, inc a delegation from India :(

I predict G7 will be cancelled (in person part, I mean)

Some of you seem to think you know a lot about Australia and NZ, even though you don't live there. Maybe, just maybe, those who actually do live in those countries know a little bit more than you do. I've read some utter rubbish on some of these threads.

Same day as Pakistan and Bangladesh.

@Oblomov21 If the Prime Minister were ever to be held to account, it would be way down the charge sheet.

I don’t understand why people are trumpeting right to repatriation, right to do this, right to do that.

Frankly I think it’s the general public’s right not to be assaulted with a new variant when the vast majority have abided by the rules, suffered deprivations of various kinds, and taken the vaccine . Why is the majority and public health as a whole in second place to those who wish to travel in the midst of a pandemic and refuse to have the vaccine into the bargain?

Vera99, your post reads as if you think they are recommending importing the variant. What that quote says, though, is ‘slowing importation of new variants is a very important priority’.

oops well spotted ! The coffee hadn't kicked in...

There is also a huge human rights issue when you refuse entry to your own citizens or make it v difficult for them to return.

Don't care about their human rights...they shouldn't have gone in the first place.

Personally I think a lot of the problems have been caused by the cost of hotel isolation being ridiculously high and the Track & Trace team not being able to effectively check on people self isolating. I don't think there would have been the same reluctance putting India on the red or a 'must self isolate' list otherwise.

I think also you have to bear in mind that India have their own version of Trump in Modi, whose declared as recently as February that they had 'beaten' covid (“It can be said with pride, India . . . defeated Covid-19 under the able, sensible, committed and visionary leadership of Prime Minister Modi . . .) so that propaganda may have given the diaspora misplaced confidence in visiting.