Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

[Whichjab]

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

Also, as the vaccine does not offer full protection to anyone, rates going up more rapidly due to a large number of younger people being unprotected and therefore spreading covid rapidly would re-endanger the vulnerable fairly quickly, as they would be more exposed.

Well then the vaccine wouldn’t be doing its job very well if it wasn’t protecting the people who had it.

Also, the virus itself wouldn’t become any more of a risk for people in the 40-49 group. There just might be more of it around.

[quote Walkaround]@bumbleymummy - “ Do you think the vaccine program isn’t going to plan? We’ve vaccinated the most vulnerable groups - most have had their two doses now. And we’ve seen a reduction in hospitalisations and deaths. What else did you think the vaccine program was meant to achieve?”
I think the vaccination programme is going to plan thanks to most people accepting the AZ vaccine. If only the vulnerable groups were protected by the time society fully opened up, I am 100% certain the risks of covid for 40-49 year olds would very rapidly outweigh the risks of the Astra Zeneca vaccine.[/quote]
I am very grateful to the many many people that have and still are going ahead with their AZ vaccine. Despite realising that the risk of blood clots for me is very small (I am 45) I am still not going to get it. I suffer from aura migraines and immune disease but my doctor has said this doesn't preclude me from getting the AZ vaccine, which I toally respect. This isn't enough to reassure me though. This isn't because I really think it will happen to me, but anxiety and worry doesn't work like that. I suffer with an anxiety disorder anyway, and I know that if I get the AZ jab I will spend a month worrying about every headache and pain and odd feeling, convinced i'm going to die. The effect on my mental health isn't a risk I can take right now. I have struggled with this, I really have, and I feel ashamed and worried that I haven't yet had a vaccine when most of my friends now have. I have an appointment booked for next week at a larger vaccine centre and I am hoping that when I get there it is Pfeizer or Moderna. My doctor said to discuss with them when I am there. I really didn't want to be this person, but my gut feeling is so strong I haven't been able to ignore my concerns. Wish me luck for next week!

Yes, but nearly 70% have only been vaccinated already because of Astra Zeneca.

Most of those 70% are people for whom the benefits did outweigh the risks (often very significantly) due to age, health conditions or occupations that resulted in a higher covid risk. We are now getting to the age groups where that is not the case.

Now you have the luxury of waiting around for a vaccine you prefer

This kind of language isn't helpful, insinuating that people who have valid concerns are being unreasonably demanding. Waiting for a vaccine that is less likely to kill you than covid is perfectly fair.

@Cherrycee - stop being paranoid and over sensitive. You do have a luxury not everyone has. That’s just a fact. If everyone had waited, we would still be in the shit.

@FFMutha - please don’t feel guilty. The whole programme is organised in the knowledge there will be vaccine hesitancy and some vaccine refusals. If you are highly anxious about having the vaccine, don’t have it. You can wait. I went ahead because I wanted to, felt it was the lowest risk choice for me to get it done sooner rather than later, and did not feel too worried about it, despite being highly alert to the possible risks. You do not feel like that and can’t help the way you feel about it. If I felt as anxious as you do about it, I would have chosen to wait for an alternative, too.

@Walkaround really appreciate that. I never thought I'd feel like this. I work in science, I am hugely pro-vaccination and not normally one to be scared of things, albeit sometimes anxious of things I can't control, like flying. It has surprised me. The few people I have confided in have been very understanding though even if they may be privately rolling their eyes at me. I think it's also just the strain of the past year. I truly am grateful for everyone that has gone ahead and got us this far though. I know I wouldn't have the luxury of hesitation without that.

I'm not being paranoid walkaround, I'm simply responding to your own words. For most people offered an AZ vaccine so far, it made sense not to wait. For some people, it does now make sense to wait. It's as simple as that.

@bumbleymummy

Well then the vaccine wouldn’t be doing its job very well if it wasn’t protecting the people who had it.

Also, the virus itself wouldn’t become any more of a risk for people in the 40-49 group. There just might be more of it around.

The risk they give for ending up in ICU take into account your chance of catching it in the first place. The reason your risk is low at the moment is because you probably won't catch it .

@Cherrycee - no, it is not that simple, as there is no black and white to the risk-benefit analysis. The only black and white issue is the vaccine risk side of that analysis. I have no objections whatsoever to you feeling too anxious to take the risk at the moment, but it’s bloody annoying you keep insisting there is only one way of calculating the risk-benefit.

@FFMutha don't worry about how you feel, I'm totally the same. I turned down AZ today (and I work in pharma as well). I've obsessively looked at EMA and MHRA data for weeks. The guy at the centre was a complete arse but apparently that's not normal and the helpline have pushed me into lodging a complaint with the health board. I've rescheduled it for 3 weeks time and will see nearer the time how I feel about it all.
I've been really emotional today about the decision which I didn't expect but I was so worried about how I'd feel for the next 4 weeks and also the second dose does worry. The figures for clots after are very low but not non existent. Maybe 3 weeks more data might make me feel happier with it all.

My risk was pretty low last year as well. I was happy to take it then and I feel the same now. A complication from COVID is a lot less of a risk than many of the other things I do on a daily basis. It is not something that I am worried about.

@Chocolategirl19791 Glad to hear you had a better response from the helpline, and I hope you're feeling better now.

but it’s bloody annoying you keep insisting there is only one way of calculating the risk-benefit.

I don't remember saying anything of the sort, let alone insisting it.

Aside from the Winton Centre data I also use the Oxford Q Risk calculator, but the Winton Centre data is what's being used to inform the regulator's decisions. Therefore it makes sense that people here (not just me) are primarily discussing that data.

[quote Walkaround]@Cherrycee - no, it is not that simple, as there is no black and white to the risk-benefit analysis. The only black and white issue is the vaccine risk side of that analysis. I have no objections whatsoever to you feeling too anxious to take the risk at the moment, but it’s bloody annoying you keep insisting there is only one way of calculating the risk-benefit.[/quote]
I agree. There's nothing wrong with wanting to wait and see until there is more data. It's the insistence by some posters that the data is wrong or has been hidden and/or the expectation to be treated differently to everyone else I find quite irritating.

Well then, @Cherrycee, you know that the data you are reviewing is in the shape it is now because so many people have already been vaccinated with the AZ vaccine, many of whom have very low risk themselves from covid. As a result of the data from all the people who have already been vaccinated and the passing of time, choices are now becoming available to younger unvaccinated people that would not otherwise have been there. As I have said many times on this thread, it’s not discussing risks versus benefits or the data I have a problem with, it’s the people intent on being angry that anyone aged 40-49 is still being offered the AZ vaccine at all and obsessed with trying to prove to themselves that this is as a result of some kind of fowl play.

The last thread was really useful- it's a shame this one has descended into petty squabbling between two or three people

@Walkaround

Well then, *@Cherrycee*, you know that the data you are reviewing is in the shape it is now because so many people have already been vaccinated with the AZ vaccine, many of whom have very low risk themselves from covid. As a result of the data from all the people who have already been vaccinated and the passing of time, choices are now becoming available to younger unvaccinated people that would not otherwise have been there. As I have said many times on this thread, it’s not discussing risks versus benefits or the data I have a problem with, it’s the people intent on being angry that anyone aged 40-49 is still being offered the AZ vaccine at all and obsessed with trying to prove to themselves that this is as a result of some kind of fowl play.

You make it sound like the data is only in the shape it is now because of the AZ vaccine. Don’t forget about the other vaccines and lockdown restrictions aswell which have obviously contributed. As people have said, the cases will no doubt start to increase as lockdown restrictions ease even more and new variants such as the Indian one are increasing in circulation, which we don’t even have data on how effective our vaccines are against that one yet.

For most people offered an AZ vaccine so far, it made sense not to wait. For some people, it does now make sense to wait. It's as simple as that.

Exactly and also in line with Canadian approach I posted earlier. Just as not everyone has the same Covid risk not everyone has the same adverse reaction risk. In the remaining cohorts the balance for these people is likely to be more skewed.

It has always been accepted that the herd is vaccinated not just to protect those for whom the vaccine fails but also to protect those who are less able to tolerate vaccination. Most people in this category will have immune system issues or previous adverse reaction history. It is not helpful or persuasive to label them as awkward freeloaders.

My DD2 developed all the symptoms of measles over the Christmas holidays following her MMR probably because I just went ahead with the first appointment scheduled while she was full of the cold. This is the illest she has ever been in her 18 years. By the time I had her younger sister I was cautious and had done a bit of research. The US regulator advises making sure your child is not under the weather when they have the vaccine and not combining with other vaccine appointments as we do in the UK (10 years ago now so would need to check if UK also advises this now). I discussed this with the practice nurse who happily waited the extra couple of months to accommodate my concerns. DD3 is fully vaccinated and did not suffer any of the side effects her older sister went through. Perhaps coincidence but nonetheless a much better approach to building trust and confidence.

@Lakes74 - the data on AZ clot risks is solely down to people who have had the AZ vaccine. That is the data being discussed on this thread.

I would like to see everyone get a choice, and I am very grateful for all those who have already had a vaccine (including AZ) as they have indeed helped to lower the current risk for those remaining. If the roll out hadn't been paused, it is likely I would have already had my first dose.

For me personally, now though, I'm just trying to wait patiently for now in the hope I will be able to be offered an alternative to AZ eventually. I don't want to delay anything for others who are younger than me and still waiting for their opportunity.

[quote Walkaround]@Lakes74 - the data on AZ clot risks is solely down to people who have had the AZ vaccine. That is the data being discussed on this thread.[/quote]
Sorry I was more referring to your statement in your 2nd sentence actually about data/cases being low because of others having vaccines therefore enabling those being more cautious to wait.

Prof Van Tam actually stated towards the end of April “Most of the steady decline (referring to cases on a graph) we have seen has been down to the efforts of the British people following lockdown. The vaccine has helped in the later stages.”

So to all those who have followed lockdown rules, you have contributed more to the low cases so far, not just because of others having the vaccine.

People shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for wanting to wait for a choice which other countries have had or for more data to become available before making a decision, especially when cases are low and therefore the benefits don’t far outweigh the risks.

@Lakes74 - I for one haven’t suggested at any point that anyone should feel guilty for wanting to wait a bit. Read my reply to FFMutha. If people keep reading accusations into statements of fact, it is not my intention for them to do so. If you want to nitpick about your interpretation of what you think I mean, that is just your interpretation, not my intended meaning. I will continue to object to statements of anger from people about the way the roll out is being done and about the fact the AZ vaccine is still being offered to anyone under 50, and to claims of deliberate cover ups and obfuscations, as I do not find those statements helpful to anybody whatsoever - they just stir up distrust and panic in people who have already been fully or partially vaccinated and in people who have not yet been vaccinated. There is no need for that if all you wish to do is discuss the data as it comes out and wait a bit before you come forward to be vaccinated.

And as for cases being low, I have never said that is because of the vaccine. Cases remaining low while we reopen society and let people travel will largely be down to the vaccines, though, so isn’t it great that nearly 70% of adults have already had at least one dose of the vaccines available up until now before we start opening up further and being encouraged to hug each other? Let’s hope they provide enough protection.

@Walkaround - sorry I didn’t say you were one of the ones making people feel guilty on here, I was just stating on my post that it shouldn’t be happening.

I’m also not nitpicking, I was just providing a fact that the decline in cases has mainly been due to the lockdown restrictions according to JVT.

I’m also not here to argue, I’m not anti-vax either, I just believe in being able to make informed decisions especially when it comes to health.

I don’t agree with stirring up panic either and maybe those who’ve already been vaccinated may be better not reading these threads if it’s going to worry them.