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Original poster

Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

981 replies

Whichjab · 06/05/2021 21:50

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

OP posts:
MiniMaxi · 09/05/2021 15:11

@Walkaround interesting, hadn’t analysed EMA data to same level. Evidently MHRA are not doing that but equally their comms is either accidentally or deliberately opaque. It’s absohrely not in their interest for people like me to be worried about dose 2 when there are lots of people already worried about dose 1.

And to be clear I do understand that even 1 in 50,000 (or whatever it ends up being) is very low risk, and strongly pro vax, etc etc etc

MiniMaxi · 09/05/2021 15:11

*absolutely

AppleJane · 09/05/2021 15:17

[quote AppleJane] The MHRA has the data for each age group but are not sharing it with the public. I wrote to them for a freedom of information request for the information but it was declined.

Michael Makris, Professor of Haemostasis and Thrombosis at The University of Sheffield, UK.

Tweeted 7th May:

“So the data on persons less than 50 years vaccinated with AZ in the UK is available, it is shared with the EMA and the Winton centre but the UK public are not allowed to see it. Why not? If they do not want to show the data they should explain why not? @MHRAgovuk@MattHancock"

https://twitter.com/ProfMakris[/quote]

@Belladonna12 and @Walkaround this is the data we are referring to as missing. They do have it. They're just not sharing it with us.

MiniMaxi · 09/05/2021 15:19

@AppleJane and they’re not even sharing it with the haematology experts which is frankly baffling

SempreSuiGeneris · 09/05/2021 15:29

Interesting whichjab. Very much aligns with my suspicion that AZ will be phased out going forwards. The nervous system issues are not new either. They were the reason the US halted trials there and have been dragging their heels ever since. The J&J suspension is another straw in the wind.

The info pamphlet posted earlier looks problematic because it is so focused on only one rare serious side effect when the yellow card points to there being others. That said I have seen a fuller better explanation elsewhere (sorry don't have a link).

Belladonna12 · 09/05/2021 15:32

@Belladonna12 and @Walkaround this is the data we are referring to as missing. They do have it. They're just not sharing it with us.

They have shared the data on the yellow card reports and that gives details of the ages.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/983475/COVID-19_vaccine_AstraZeneca_analysis_print.pdf

Belladonna12 · 09/05/2021 15:38

@Whichjab

EU hasn't renewed deal for AstraZeneca vaccine after June, commissioner says

f7td5.app.goo.gl/Up7Gsr

Sent via @updayUK

Interesting article, also links to a rare nerve disorder linked to vaccine

They are not renewing it because they are not happy with the lack of supply. They are not going to renew a contract with a company they are suing. The fact that the EMA are reviewing reports on Guillain-Barre syndrome (not that rare) doesn't mean there is a link. They review data on side effects all the time. They are also reviewing data on a link with the Pfizer vaccine and heart inflammation for example.
Walkaround · 09/05/2021 15:40

@Cherrycee

You don’t get that specific type of rare blood clot occurring naturally

CVSTs occur in the general population, though they are rare. According to the German researchers about 2 or 3 per million is the typical rate.

Even more vanishingly rare when accompanied by low platelets and a specific antibody. There is clearly a link to the vaccine in all age groups now if the risk is being reported as 1 in 100,000 for 50-59 year olds.
Walkaround · 09/05/2021 15:44

My personal assessment of the risk-benefit analysis still resulted in me agreeing to be vaccinated with the AZ vaccine.

AppleJane · 09/05/2021 15:46

[quote Belladonna12]**@Belladonna12 and @Walkaround this is the data we are referring to as missing. They do have it. They're just not sharing it with us.

They have shared the data on the yellow card reports and that gives details of the ages.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/983475/COVID-19_vaccine_AstraZeneca_analysis_print.pdf[/quote]
Nope, missed the point again. We do not know how many doses of AZ has been given to those age groups. Why do you think the Professor would say otherwise?

Walkaround · 09/05/2021 15:50

@AppleJane - can you point me to a health agency that has published all the data you think it is reasonable for the public to expect?

bumbleymummy · 09/05/2021 15:51

@Belladonna12 I’d like to know the number of doses of AZ given to each age group along with the incidence of clots in that same age group.

Cherrycee · 09/05/2021 15:51

@Walkaround

I absolutely agree it's linked to the vaccine, but I'm saying the risk/benefit analysis by age is important. If I was in my 60s I would accept AZ rather than wait, because my risk from covid is many times higher than the clotting. If I was in my 40s, I would be inclined to wait because the risks of both are more evenly balanced.

Walkaround · 09/05/2021 15:54

Ps we know that at least 2/3 of 40-49 year olds have already been vaccinated - I’m sure I read that at the end of April.

LondonWFuck · 09/05/2021 15:56

[quote Cherrycee]**@Walkaround

I absolutely agree it's linked to the vaccine, but I'm saying the risk/benefit analysis by age is important. If I was in my 60s I would accept AZ rather than wait, because my risk from covid is many times higher than the clotting. If I was in my 40s, I would be inclined to wait because the risks of both are more evenly balanced.[/quote]
Same here. I am 40 and waiting for Pfizer which I was told will be available in my vaccination centre in the next 2 weeks. I was due my first jab today, they only had AZ, I declined it, they were totally fine about that.

AppleJane · 09/05/2021 15:57

[quote Walkaround]@AppleJane - can you point me to a health agency that has published all the data you think it is reasonable for the public to expect?[/quote]
You'd make a great politician. Answer a question with another question when you don't want to answer. I keep being told the number is there but it simply is not. If I knew the number of AZ doses given to my age group I could make an informed choice. It's not controversial.

Walkaround · 09/05/2021 15:59

@Cherrycee - yes, but that was precisely my point, if you look back at what I said - that I am aggravated when people talk about the risk rather than the risk-benefit analysis! There is a vaccine risk for 100% of people that have the vaccine. Deciding where the risks outweigh the benefits depends to a certain extent on your perception of the benefits. Some people limit that to a very personal level, others to a general societal level, and others to their own country’s track record on dealing with coronavirus pre-vaccination... You may have a clear idea in your head of the appropriate cut-off age, I happen to disagree that your opinion is necessarily better than that of the MHRA.

Walkaround · 09/05/2021 16:02

@AppleJane - you have been given the current risk ratio. You know most 40-49 year olds have already been vaccinated. You know even if you know exactly how many, it won’t help you calculate how many of those haven’t yet had a rare type of blood clot but will in the next couple of weeks. So what do you think you are missing out on that is going to help you?

AppleJane · 09/05/2021 16:07

[quote Walkaround]@AppleJane - you have been given the current risk ratio. You know most 40-49 year olds have already been vaccinated. You know even if you know exactly how many, it won’t help you calculate how many of those haven’t yet had a rare type of blood clot but will in the next couple of weeks. So what do you think you are missing out on that is going to help you?[/quote]
So you know better than a Professor of Haemostasis and Thrombosis?

Walkaround · 09/05/2021 16:09

@AppleJane - no, but I am aware of what I have been told. Either you think the MHRA are actively lying about the risk ratio or you trust them. Simples. Being told how many 40-49 year olds have been given the AZ vaccine up to today tells me bugger all that I would find of use. What does it tell you?

Belladonna12 · 09/05/2021 16:10

[quote bumbleymummy]@Belladonna12 I’d like to know the number of doses of AZ given to each age group along with the incidence of clots in that same age group.[/quote]
That data comes from a different body to the MHRA. They may not have yet and/or it may not be analysed. I'm sure it will be published soon .It's a big job and the AstraZeneca vaccine is not the only drug they are looking at. It doesn't mean that they are withholding information.

bumbleymummy · 09/05/2021 16:12

I haven’t said they are - you asked me what I wanted to see so I told you.

AppleJane · 09/05/2021 16:12

@Belladonna12 the Professor has specifically stated that they have given that information to other agencies.

Walkaround · 09/05/2021 16:16

@AppleJane - Does this Professor need data on numbers of people getting these clots to work out how to treat them? Has he said why he thinks he needs the data and cannot trust the organisations that do have it to make accurate mathematical calculations from it?

Belladonna12 · 09/05/2021 16:16

@bumbleymummy

I haven’t said they are - you asked me what I wanted to see so I told you.
I was asking the posters who complained about the lack of transparency what they felt was being withheld from them by the MHRA. They have given details of all yellow card reports. The MHRA will not necessarily know exactly how many 40 to 49-year-olds have been vaccinated yet and even if they do it can take time for yellow card reports come in so it wouldn't be realistic to give exact rates of adverse effects.